Safety pilot - logging cross-country

For IFR practice, in the situation where both pilots are logging PIC,
one as sole manipulator, the other as acting PIC, can both pilots log
cross-country (assuming the flight meets the length requirements) for
the purpose of meeting the requirements for the Instrument Rating?

I'll leave the definitive answer to those who know better than I, but
my "uneducated" guess would be.... Yes.

PIC is PIC, and XCtry is XCtry... If you are PIC (either way) of an
aircraft on a flight that meets XCtry requirements, you can log that as
XCtry/PIC time.

Looking forward to the flurry of regs... ;-)

Best Regards,
Todd

For IFR practice, in the situation where both pilots are logging PIC,
one as sole manipulator, the other as acting PIC, can both pilots log
cross-country (assuming the flight meets the length requirements) for
the purpose of meeting the requirements for the Instrument Rating?

I'm not sure, but I suspect the answer may be "no", and one cannot dual
log all of the flight time either.

One can =be= PIC and still not be able to =log= PIC time. One may log
PIC time when one =is= PIC on a flight that requires more than one
pilot. IFR practice is such a flight, but only during the time the
pilot flying is under the hood, and (therefore) the safety pilot is a
required crewmember. Strictly speaking, this means that one (generally)
may not log PIC time when one is flying with a non-pilot friend and
letting that friend fly the airplane. Personally, I consider that
non-pilot friend to be an organic autopilot and I log the time. I'm
sure most other pilots do the same. It also means that in a safety
pilot situation, when the safety pilot is acting as PIC, but the flight
does not require two pilots (such as when the pilot flying takes the
hood off in VMC), the safety pilot who is also PIC may not =log= PIC
time. (remember, =being= and =logging= PIC are two different and
largely unrelated animals).

XC time useful towards ratings requires landings at two different
airports separated by specified distances. One cannot (in general) log
XC time for a flight that traverses thousands of miles and then lands at
the departure airport. This rasies the question of whether, in the case
of two pilots who each fly half of an otherwise legitimate XC flight,
either one could log XC time, if one does the takeoff and the other does
the landing. Similarly, it is not clear to me whether either pilot
could log XC time if one pilot does JUST takeoff and landing, while the
other pilot does all the cross country navigating while the first pilot
naps.

If the answer to this is "no" then I'd expect the answer to the original
question to also be "no" because (generally) one lands visually, and two
pilots are not required to land a spam can, so the safety pilot (acting
as PIC) could not be logging PIC time for the actual landing or takeoff.
It is true (and perhaps sufficient) that the safety pilot, acting as
PIC, might be able to log =flight time=, but I don't see any provision
in 61.51 for such time to be applied to ratings and such, since plain
vanilla flight time is not one of the kinds of time deliniated in the
section.

Now, what the regs =say=, what they =mean=, what they were =intended= to
mean, and how they are =followed= are four different things.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Maybe it's me, but I wouldn't consider for a moment logging a trip that I
had not personally planned and flown on my own.

Bob Gardner

"S Herman" wrote in message
...
For IFR practice, in the situation where both pilots are logging PIC,
one as sole manipulator, the other as acting PIC, can both pilots log
cross-country (assuming the flight meets the length requirements) for
the purpose of meeting the requirements for the Instrument Rating?

Bob Gardner wrote:
Maybe it's me, but I wouldn't consider for a moment logging a trip that I
had not personally planned and flown on my own.

A few years ago, I figured that since I wasn't PIC for the takeoff and
landing, that I couldn't log XC PIC - assuming I was safety pilot and acting
as PIC while the other gyu was under the hood.

Then I read Part 61.1, and the time on a XC that you log PIC, you can also
log XC, assuming all the other requirements are met.

Hilton

You will get a variety of answers to this, but my answer is you cannot
count that time towards your IR.

A safety pilot is required only when the other pilot is wearing a view
liimting device. Since takeoffs and landings are done visually, a
safety pilot is not required during these portions. Therefore, you
could be PIC only during the enroute portion.

However, since a cross country flight must involve a takeoff and
landing, just the enroute portion does not qualify as XC time.

In reality, it would be fooling to log PIC XC time for any flight that
you did not plan yourself.

Then I read Part 61.1, and the time on a XC that you log PIC, you can also
log XC, assuming all the other requirements are met.

Well, consider:

61.1(a)(3) Cross country time means ... time acquired during a flight -
(C) that includes a landing...

Is it the flight that has to include the landing, or the time? The
sentence (and the other similar ones) is ambiguous. It is the nature of
English, but creating unambiguous English is the job of lawyers, who
have failed in whatever attempt they made when creating the FARs.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
In reality, it would be fooling to log PIC XC time for any flight that
you did not plan yourself.

Perhaps, but it seems like you're making up your own FARs. Your logic seems
to also imply that you're fooling yourself to log PIC while doing nothing
other than look out the window, but the FARs clearly say we can, and we do..

Hilton

In reality, it is the pilot, the instructor and the DE who must be
satisfied with the logging. Most instructors and most DE's are onboard
with both pilots logging PIC under this circumstance (but not all). Not
sure enough instructors or DE's have seen this approach to logging
cross country to know what they think. Also if you are headed for pro
pilot with a major airline, your logs will undergo scrutiny. Will they
be happy? Who knows. If you, your co-pilot, your instructor and your DE
are happy with it, go ahead and log it, if you really need the cross
country time. But realize you are logging something that is a bit of a
gray area and it may come back to bite you. Then again, maybe not.

Whatever you do, make sure you have the skills to plan a long cross
country flight through timezone changes, prevailing wind direction
issues, length of day issues, and weather issues to understand them and
be able to anticipate their effect on your flight. Also make sure you
can plan your flight into an airport you have never been to before and
all that entails. as well as deal with complicated airspace. If you can
accomplish this with your method and everyone will sign things off, you
may be ok.

No reason why BOTH of you cannot plan the flight seperately and compare
your plans and choose the best of both. Could be interesting and a good
learning experience.

Why do you say that I am making up my own FAR? Can you show that
logging PIC XC time as a safety pilot is consistent with the FARs?