Some bad controllers

Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
....so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

.... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff wrote:
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
wasn't other traffic.


Matt

Teacherjh wrote:

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.


On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

If you do not hear the controller talking then he is not busy, doesn't
matter how many freq's he has. Controllers do not switch transmitters
on and off to talk to different aircraft. What he may be doing off the
air is irrelavant. If he gets too busy he gets another body in there to
handle the landline.

there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center, phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

another main problem I had was him letting another plane get so close in IMC that
he had to give me a traffic alert. what happened to this seperation I was suppose
to be getting.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

so what happens, do they close down all the airports inside the phoenix area
to GA aircraft because they are to busy with departures?
no was was up flying VFR, you wasnt getting in without being on instruments,
the number of planes they were working should have been lower then a normal
sunny day.
It still does not explain him almost letting someone run into me. I fly into
southern california all the time, those are some busy controllers. but it runs
smooth, they have never told me or anyone else I have heard, that they couldnt
work them and they have never given me a traffic alert.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

Jeff wrote:
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
wasn't other traffic.

Matt

Jeff:

I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly
controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the
place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or
some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find
it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That
way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close.

Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse
me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one
more item in the log book.

Michael



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was
taking me
away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any
second as
usual.

from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center,
phoenix is
not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into
their
airspace. There airspace is not that busy.

Teacherjh wrote:

freezing level was 7000-8000
[...]
I start my decent, between some clouds

Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a
big deal

so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds
[...]
I amnow stuck and I needed my
clearence or I would be in trouble.

... which is why I ask, above.

because he was too busy.
noone was talking except me.

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do
things
besides talk on the radio.

then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to
decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared for the visual.

You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then
you can
probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into
DXR
once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller
asked what
I wanted, so I took the Loc 8.

and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft
or when my engine started
losing power.

OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the
weather and
the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too!

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jeff wrote in message ...
all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.

Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
doing a lot of coordination by phone.

So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.

We've been bitten ourselves where we did something (took off,
descended) on the idea that we would be able to get our clearance
promptly then for one or another reason we couldn't and we didn't
like where we wound up. My bottom line now is, if I'm not comfortable
with flying VFR, I want to stay where I'm comfortable until I get
that IFR clearance. It doesn't sound like you were comfortable
descending and dodging clouds/Class B airspace and you only did it
because the controller told you he would "look for your clearance"
and you thought that meant you'd be cleared promptly.

Re the "look for your clearance" thing, where did you file the
IFR flight plan to originate? If you had the IFR flight
plan commencing in someone else's airspace (say, just outside or
just above the airspace the TRACON controls), the controller you
are talking to may not have a strip on you or any info on you.
He will need to figure out whose airspace the flight plan originated
in and call them up and say "depart this guy for me, would you?"
then and only then the info will come through. That can be
low on the priority list if he's busy. You can help yourself
there by making absolutely sure your flight plan actually originates
in the airspace of the controller you're talking to (this can be
harder to figure out than you might think), or, if there seems to be
some problem offer to call FSS in the air and refile.

I'm not familiar with the Phoenix airspace or area so I don't
have much other comment. Maybe he was a bad controller -- or
maybe he was just a busy guy doing too much without enough
help and with a bunch of screwball pilots who weren't doing
much to help him out.

FWIW,
Sydney

ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
sunny about 350 days a year there.

Snowbird wrote:

Jeff wrote in message ...
all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.

Jeff, with regard to "no one was talking except me". Be aware
that a controller can be handling 2 or even 3 frequencies, and
also depending upon how his airspace is set up he may need to be
doing a lot of coordination by phone.

So he might not be talking to anyone else on your freq, but he
still could be busier than a 1 armed paper hanger.

We've been bitten ourselves where we did something (took off,
descended) on the idea that we would be able to get our clearance
promptly then for one or another reason we couldn't and we didn't
like where we wound up. My bottom line now is, if I'm not comfortable
with flying VFR, I want to stay where I'm comfortable until I get
that IFR clearance. It doesn't sound like you were comfortable
descending and dodging clouds/Class B airspace and you only did it
because the controller told you he would "look for your clearance"
and you thought that meant you'd be cleared promptly.

Re the "look for your clearance" thing, where did you file the
IFR flight plan to originate? If you had the IFR flight
plan commencing in someone else's airspace (say, just outside or
just above the airspace the TRACON controls), the controller you
are talking to may not have a strip on you or any info on you.
He will need to figure out whose airspace the flight plan originated
in and call them up and say "depart this guy for me, would you?"
then and only then the info will come through. That can be
low on the priority list if he's busy. You can help yourself
there by making absolutely sure your flight plan actually originates
in the airspace of the controller you're talking to (this can be
harder to figure out than you might think), or, if there seems to be
some problem offer to call FSS in the air and refile.

I'm not familiar with the Phoenix airspace or area so I don't
have much other comment. Maybe he was a bad controller -- or
maybe he was just a busy guy doing too much without enough
help and with a bunch of screwball pilots who weren't doing
much to help him out.

FWIW,
Sydney