Busted IFR Checkride

Well, Jon, it's clear to me that you must have done a LOT of things right
for the ride, since the holding pattern was the only thing that nipped
you...

Adding the final touches to your holding pattern technique, should be a lot
easier, now that you can devote your time with your instructor just working
on holding patterns (i.e., since you passed all the rest, there will be no
need to practice them again for the follow-up checkride).

First of all, I don't mean to be critical of Jon, his instructor, or others
who have posted on this thread. However, I don't necessarily agree with the
recommendation to just brush up on holds and then take the checkride again.
When I was a new CFI working at a Part 141 school, I had an instrument student
who was a nice guy and serious pilot, but had a little more trouble than most
getting all the IFR stuff together. Eventually, we completed the syllabus.
On his final stage check, he messed up the NDB approach but was OK on
everything else. We reviewed the ADF, he redid the NDB part of the stage
check and passed, and I signed him off for the check ride, which he then
failed for something unrelated to ADF. At that point, I realized that when
he blew the NDB approach, it wasn't a problem with the ADF, but a general
problem with situational awareness and keeping on top of things. After quite
a bit more instruction, he eventually passed.

Based on this experience, I caution Jon to make sure that his bad holding
pattern is not a symptom of other, more general problems. Remember that the
checkride is not comprehensive, but just a spot check; the fact that many
things went well doesn't prove that everything is OK. If Jon's CFII is an
experienced instrument instructor and has a lot of instrument rating
endorsements under his belt, then he will probably know if Jon's problem on
the checkride was just a glitch. In this case, it might be OK to just review
holds, and then complete the checkride. However, if the CFII has little
experience, or if he is experienced and not completely confident in Jon's
proficiency level, then I suggest spending at least several hours reviewing
all elements of the PTS, possibly with a more experienced instructor. Sure,
at this point you mainly want to get the checkride behind you, but make sure
that you're not ignoring a warning that the holding pattern might be giving
you.

Good luck.

Barry

I caution Jon to make sure that his bad holding pattern is not a
symptom of other, more general problems. Remember that the checkride
is not comprehensive, but just a spot check; the fact that many things
went well doesn't prove that everything is OK.

Very wise advice.

But that assumes that the goal of the student and instructor is
something different from just passing a checkride. ;-)

My CFII is the chief flight instructor at our school and has many years
experience instructing... He knows I am ready for the checkride or he
wouldn't have signed me off... He knows that I just screwed up and
that is all... Basically I wanted to write my account of the busted
checkride to let people know that is isn't the end of the world... Far
from it... Just another learing experience... No more no less... Funny,
I lost not one minutes sleep over it last night :-) Thanks for the
advise... JK

Barry wrote:

Well, Jon, it's clear to me that you must have done a LOT of things right
for the ride, since the holding pattern was the only thing that nipped
you...

Adding the final touches to your holding pattern technique, should be a lot
easier, now that you can devote your time with your instructor just working
on holding patterns (i.e., since you passed all the rest, there will be no
need to practice them again for the follow-up checkride).



First of all, I don't mean to be critical of Jon, his instructor, or others
who have posted on this thread. However, I don't necessarily agree with the
recommendation to just brush up on holds and then take the checkride again.
When I was a new CFI working at a Part 141 school, I had an instrument student
who was a nice guy and serious pilot, but had a little more trouble than most
getting all the IFR stuff together. Eventually, we completed the syllabus.
On his final stage check, he messed up the NDB approach but was OK on
everything else. We reviewed the ADF, he redid the NDB part of the stage
check and passed, and I signed him off for the check ride, which he then
failed for something unrelated to ADF. At that point, I realized that when
he blew the NDB approach, it wasn't a problem with the ADF, but a general
problem with situational awareness and keeping on top of things. After quite
a bit more instruction, he eventually passed.

Based on this experience, I caution Jon to make sure that his bad holding
pattern is not a symptom of other, more general problems. Remember that the
checkride is not comprehensive, but just a spot check; the fact that many
things went well doesn't prove that everything is OK. If Jon's CFII is an
experienced instrument instructor and has a lot of instrument rating
endorsements under his belt, then he will probably know if Jon's problem on
the checkride was just a glitch. In this case, it might be OK to just review
holds, and then complete the checkride. However, if the CFII has little
experience, or if he is experienced and not completely confident in Jon's
proficiency level, then I suggest spending at least several hours reviewing
all elements of the PTS, possibly with a more experienced instructor. Sure,
at this point you mainly want to get the checkride behind you, but make sure
that you're not ignoring a warning that the holding pattern might be giving
you.

Good luck.

Barry

Now that you got the "bust" over with, you can relax, take your review ride with
your instructor, take the recheck ride with the DE, and then start learning how
to fly IFR (remember -- a ticket is merely a "license to learn")! Most pilots
will bust a ride some time in their lifetime; you just got yours out of the way
early!

While holding may be infrequent, it usually comes up at an inopportune time when
it does come up. So, it's worth keeping up your skills. I've recently had to
do a "360 for spacing" on approach into HKG, and have had to hold a couple times
at Point Reyes on arrival into SFO (B747). Also, holding is a good technique
when you're not quite ready to start an approach IMC; just ask for a turn or 2,
and get yourself prepared after established.

Once you get more comfortable flying IFR and IMC, the holding will become much
easier. Take advantage of every opportunity to practice!

"Jon Kraus" wrote...
Thanks Bob... I figured the same thing... I hear that most people have
never been asked to hold anywhere... how about you? JK

Bob Gardner wrote:

Not a biggie. Life goes on. Sorry that it happened, but considering that you
will spend an infinitesimal amount of time actually holding in real life
(not counting doing it to stay current), you got the important stuff behind
you.


"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
. ..

Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn fustrated
that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the airport...

wrote:

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good
feeling for what it is all about.

I think that this is significant. When I could get a hold instruction and
know how I'd enter it w/o a lot of work, my brain was more prepared for
IMC. Think of it as a mind-stretching puzzle which exercises situational
awareness.

- Andrew

Mark Astley wrote:

Anyway, the DE let this go on for about 10 minutes or so
before suggesting they do a 180 rather than circle the globe on course.
The rest of the ride went off without a hitch.

It sounds like a failing in the DE's instructions, if he wasn't clear enough
to indicate ahead of time that they shouldn't circumnavigate the globe.

- Andrew

First the operational reason - holds are sometimes used for course
reversal on approaches in lieu of procedure turns. In such a case,
you are expected to do only the hold entry. Further, for your own
good you need to be well established on the inbound course before
crossing the fix. Finally, when this is done, the reason the hold was
chosen over the PT was to keep you out of airspace or obstructions.
So the bottom line is holding is not important until it it. Still,
there are other items that fall into that category (for example IFR
departures from VFR fields) that are not covered at all.

Good point, screwing up an enroute hold is rarely a big deal, but IFR
departure procedures often prescribe identical orbiting procedures
(even if they are not called "holds") that really do keep you out of
the weeds, sometimes with not very big margins. If you get messed up
there, I'd say head straight back to the navaid while climbing and try
to sort it out.

I only became really aware of published IDP's and the various TERPS
issues after reading Wally Robert's site, my own instrument training
did not emphasise this too much, which is a bit scary in retrospect...

Hey, try not to sweat it. Not passing a check ride
is not a big deal. You take it again.

I blew my PP checkride the first time around. I flew
fine, but exercised poor judgement by flying too close
to a cloud. I believed I was outside the 1000/500/2000
rule, but he didn't, and that was that. I don't blame
the DE for failing me.

I think the hardest part of the whole episode was
looking my instructor in the eye, telling him how I
busted. He knew I was ready, I just f**'d up.

When I took my IFR checkride, my instructor once
again admonished me that "these things are really
harder on the CFII than they are on the student."
I did not want to screw up, and luckily, this time
around I did not.

I did make some mistakes on the checkride. One of
which was flying on a vector right through the FAC
on a partial-panel VOR-A approach to TCY. I was
behind the plane, had not dialed in the OBS as
quickly as I should have, when I did, the needle was
already on the wrong side.

I caught the problem right away, correcting right
away, and said so out loud. The rest of the approach
was sloppy by my standards, but within PTS limits.
Still, the DE could have failed me right then and
there. He elected not to. Luck.

There's just something about checkrides.

-- dave j
-- PP-ASEL, IA
-- jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

Jon Kraus wrote in message ...
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn fustrated
that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the airport... Then
I thought to myself "what are you going to do there pout?" :-) I then
decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride and get it out of the way.
I did OK... not great but passable... This DE made it pretty easy on
me... He was telling me about his IFR checkride and him busting on his
first attempt too... He busted on the holding pattern too so I didn't
feel that bad.. He now has 14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his
busted IFR checkride so I figured why should I... Now I just need to go
back up with my instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go
back up with the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done...
More to follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...

Based on this experience, I caution Jon to make sure that his bad holding
pattern is not a symptom of other, more general problems. Remember that
the
checkride is not comprehensive, but just a spot check; the fact that many
things went well doesn't prove that everything is OK. If Jon's CFII is an
experienced instrument instructor and has a lot of instrument rating
endorsements under his belt, then he will probably know if Jon's problem
on
the checkride was just a glitch. In this case, it might be OK to just
review
holds, and then complete the checkride. However, if the CFII has little
experience, or if he is experienced and not completely confident in Jon's
proficiency level, then I suggest spending at least several hours
reviewing
all elements of the PTS, possibly with a more experienced instructor.
Sure,
at this point you mainly want to get the checkride behind you, but make
sure
that you're not ignoring a warning that the holding pattern might be
giving
you.

This is a VERY good point, though it would be more accurate to say that
performing a holding pattern truly involves a heightened level of
situational awareness - I think,,,, more so, than most of the instrument
flying skills.

Thankfully, though we are dealing with Jon and most of us know that he has
it all together and that he just 'brain faded' a bit when it got to the
holds. Actually, upon re-reading his account, he had to be exhausted
halfway through his checkride,,, I'd say there was even more pressure on him
than in a 'normal' checkride experience.

Good observation/point, though... very good!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

wrote
In a Cessna 172, no doubt about it. But, the instrument rating is
not a rating ride limited to 172's.

It kind of is, though. Oh, I don't mean literally - but the lowest
published holding speed (other than STOL) that I've ever seen is 180
kts. I can't think of ANY airplane that won't COMFORTABLY hold at 120
kts or less that you will ever be able to fly without
insurance-mandated type-specific training, including instrument
training. Strictly speaking, since an instrument ride in a single
engine airplane always gets you an instrument rating limited to single
engine airplanes, and since the single engine jets all require type
ratings or LOA's anyway, it's not even an insurance issue. For all
practical purposes, there is no need to test an applicant taking an
instrument ride in a C-172 or equivalent on proper holding entries,
because he's not getting a rating that will allow him to fly IFR in
anything where they matter.

The only thing that really matters is that he can become reasonably
established on the inbound course before crossing the fix a second
time, and that only matters for approaches where the hold is the
published course reversal. Even that is somewhat questionable, since
he can always take a second trip around the hold to get established if
absolutely necessary.

Let's face it - the only real reason for teaching and testing the
holding entries is to develop and test for situational awareness.

Michael