Crashing on takeoff... how odd

Well, if it apears a lot wider than 75', I can see them not picking up on it
till it was too late.
That explains a lot if thats the way that runway is paved.
A sad situation.

--
My 2¢ YMMV
"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can see how they got disoriented in the dark (my guess) and I can see
how
the tower wouldn't necessarily pick up that they were on the wrong
runway,
but I can't understand why the 'WTF is going on here' alarm didn't go off
in
the Pilot or Co-pilots head as they were starting a takeoff roll down a
75'
wide runway in poor shape, as opposed to the newer 150' wide runway they
were supposed to be on.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M6AD235AD

Take a look at the Google Maps link - the 75' wide runway is only 75'
between the markings. It appears to be a 150' wide swath of pavement.
In the dark, you could easily miss the runway numbers while turning
onto 26 if following the left-most taxiway centerline from the terminal
area. Not sure what sort of lighted runway signage there is in the
vicinity tho.

The patched up part of that runway appears to be at the 08 end, so it's
certainly possible by the time they got to that end, they did realize
something was wrong, but possibly too late to do anything about it
other than pull up hard.

--
Guy

Taxi ways and signage aren't lit worth a damn at some of the GA airports
I've been to at night. The lighting off the main runway leaves a lot to be
desired in most cases. It would be easy to get turned around and disoriented
at a lot of GA airports if you're not careful. They don't seem to be lit at
all like the larger airports.
Alex
My 2¢ YMMV

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

After looking at the photo of the runway on google earth, I saw
something that I think is interesting on runway 26 compared to runway
22. The number markings for 22 are at the far end of the runway,
pretty much at the end of the taxiway such that you would have to read
the numbers from the side and as you turn onto the runway the numbers
would be off to the right of the aircraft. On runway 22 the numbers
are in front of the taxiway. After turning on to runway 22, you would
have the numbers clearly laid out in front of you, oriented correctly
with respect to your view down the runway and illuminated by the
landing lights.
I know that with the last night flight I did it was difficult to read
the numbers at night and even harder when you have to read them from
the side and no direct light onthem fromthe aircraft.
Just an observation and I am not saying that this would have helped
but I think it would be a good thing if once you are in position for
takeoff, you can see the numbers clearly in front of the aircraft. Or
at least as you are getting into position to cross over the numbers,
instead of having them off to the side some distance away.

You are correct (with your correction of the second sentence to RWY
26) but shouldn't there be illuminated signage for the runway
numbers?

Ron Lee

Jay Beckman wrote:

If you are sitting at the departure end of a 3500' runway, presumeably ony
500' ahead of you is a big white 3.

Really a strange situation.



None of the 3500 footers that I fly from have distance markers. The
4600 footer at my home base has 1000 foot marker stripes, but no
distance remaining signs.

In article ,
"Montblack" wrote:

Aren't all airline pilots required to operate from the field before they
carry passengers from it?

I've never heard of this before.

All aircarriers are required to fly prescribed familiarization flights
into and out of any airport they intend to serve several times without
passengers before they begin passenger service. (There is a term for it,
but old age prevents me from recalling what it is.)

Having said that, I wonder if they are given credit for using the sim to
fullfil this requirement in these days of high level simulators?

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Judah wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
nk.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
58...

Matt Whiting wrote in
:


If the tower cleared the airplane to the correct runway and the
pilots taxied to a different one, how does the tower share in this
blame?

On what basis are you assuming that he was cleared to the correct
runway?


He's not. He said IF the tower cleared the airplane to the correct
runway.



I read the inflection of the "If" as a statement of presumption, not as
the subject of the query. But you're right - I could have misread the
intent.

I was speculating that the clearance was correct, but even if it wasn't,
I make the same assertion - it is the pilots' fault if they took off on
a runway too short for their operating conditions. What part of PIC
don't you understand?

When did I claim that it wasn't the pilots' fault? I was simply asking why
you assumed that they were cleared for the correct runway?

Matt Whiting wrote in news:OurIg.777$Db4.98462
@news1.epix.net:

Judah wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote in
:


If the tower cleared the airplane to the correct runway and the pilots
taxied to a different one, how does the tower share in this blame?


On what basis are you assuming that he was cleared to the correct runway?

Doesn't matter. It is up to us as pilots to be familiar with all
available information prior to our flight. That includes the length of
runway required for takeoff and the lengths of the runways at the
airports we are using.

I agree with you. I was simply asking why you assumed that he was cleared for
the correct runway.

Taxi ways and signage aren't lit worth a damn at some of the GA airports
I've been to at night. The lighting off the main runway leaves a lot to be
desired in most cases. It would be easy to get turned around and disoriented
at a lot of GA airports if you're not careful. They don't seem to be lit at
all like the larger airports.

I landed at LEX at 9 PM last April during a return flight from Florida.
R22 has excellent lighting. Unless something wasn't turned on or was our
of service as a result of the recent runway paving, lighting should not
have been an issue.

Prior to the repaving, R22 was so rough my landing light connection got
knocked loose. :-))

wrote in
ps.com:

Judah wrote:

If the answer is that they took off from the wrong runway, then the
question becomes what caused them to be unable to identify the runway
as the wrong runway?


Do airport charts that pilots carry along not contain runway lengths?
If yes, there'd be another oversight.


The Sectional shows the length of the longest runway at an airfield. The A/FD
shows all runway lengths. The IFR-approved GPS systems in the planes that I
fly have runway lengths in their database that can be popped up on the screen
with a button. I don't think it was a question of not having the runway
length info available to them.

Someone posted a link to a Sattelite view of the field. In looking at it, if
the signage for runway 22 was not clear, I could see how it would be possible
for a pilot to line up on 22 without seeing the numbers, and confuse it for
26. That's not meant to excuse the mistake, because there are other checks
that should have been done, and clearly there is an element of carelessness
when one take off from a wrong runway under any circumstance. But seeing that
image did change my perspective on at least how it could even be possible for
a professional pilot to take off on a runway that was supposedly very
different than the intended runway...

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 04:23:04 GMT, john smith wrote in
:

In article . com,
wrote:

Alex Pitschmann wrote:
I can see how they got disoriented in the dark (my guess)

Dark at 38N at 7am in Aug??

Yes, LEX is on the western edge of the Eastern Time Zone.
Sunrise is just before 7 AM. The aircraft departed about 6:04 AM.

It would seem that is correct:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html
U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department


Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Lexington, Fayette
County, Kentucky (longitude W84.5, latitude N38.1):

Sunday
27 August 2006 Eastern Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:36 a.m.
Sunrise 7:03 a.m.
Sun transit 1:39 p.m.
Sunset 8:15 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:42 p.m.

MOON
Moonset 9:33 p.m. on preceding day
Moonrise 10:34 a.m.
Moon transit 4:19 p.m.
Moonset 9:54 p.m.
Moonrise 11:34 a.m. on following day


Phase of the Moon on 27 August: waxing crescent with 13% of the
Moon's visible disk illuminated.

New Moon on 23 August 2006 at 3:10 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

john smith wrote:

All aircarriers are required to fly prescribed familiarization flights
into and out of any airport they intend to serve several times without
passengers before they begin passenger service. (There is a term for it,
but old age prevents me from recalling what it is.)

Does it count if the one of the two flight deck crewmembers has been
there, or do both require familiarization?