Can GPS be *too* accurate? Do I need some XTE??

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Bill Denton ) wrote:

The separation of VFR/IFR aircraft is not covered in this section; the
separation of ALL aircraft is discussed in the previous section.

Then why are you and I having this disagreement?

You asked about separation of an aircraft flying at 6,000 feet,
presumably on an IFR flight plan, I maintained all along about the fact
that IFR flights are not separated from VFR flights and presented two
scenarios where an IFR aircraft at 6,000 feet might encounter a VFR
aircraft, yet you quote a passage that admittedly has nothing to do with
my posts.

No, the orignal poster presented the scenario. I simply pointed out that a
6000 feet he would be on an IFR flight plan, talking to ATC, and receiving
traffic from ATC.

You introduced the passage and misinterpreted it. I provided a correct
interpretation.


The purpose of this section is to remind VFR-on-top-pilots that while
they
are on an IFR flight plan, ATC has allowed them to deviate and fly under
VFR
rules (including see and avoid) and that ATC is not obligated to provide
traffic guidance.

I am not sure what your point about VFR-on-top is, but as a reminder to
you, in the US VFR-on-TOP is a specific IFR clearance that must be
requested.

And if you are granted that clearance, you will be flying under what are
essentially Visual Flight Rules, you will be allowed to deviate from your
as-filed flight plan, and ATC is not obligated to provide traffic guidance
outside of Class B's and TRSA's.They still have an open IFR flight plan;
they must either cancel IFR, or they must rejoin that flight plan at a
waypoint on the plan and continue fllying that flight plan.



Simply being on an IFR flight plan in visual conditions is not the same
as VFR-on-top. In the case of the IFR flight in VMC, the pilot is still
guaranteed ATC separation between other IFR aircraft, but not VFR
aircraft (excluding class B).

Thus, to your question in your first post, an IFR aircraft at 6,000 feet
is still at risk of a mid-air collision.

But a pilot flying on a VFR flight plan is required to observe "see and
avoid", and if he is observing it and taking appropriate evasive action, a
collision cannot occur.

Keep in mind that separation is not provided only by ATC traffic guidance
and "see and avoid", it's also provided by "east is odd, west is even, VFR
+500" altitudes and other things.



--
Peter

== Peter R writes:

Bill Denton ) wrote:
And I don't know if this is a trick question, but if you are at 6000 (no
+500) wouldn't you be on an IFR flight plan, talking to ATC, and receiving
traffic advisories?

In the US and outside of class B airspace, it is the pilot, not ATC, who
is ultimately responsible for IFR/VFR traffic separation. A VFR traffic
advisory to an IFR aircraft is a courtesy offered by ATC; it is not a
guarantee.

I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

dan.

--
PGP key at http://www.longhands.org/drg-pgp.txt Key Id:0x507D93DF

No, separation is not provided by ATC.




"Dan Girellini" wrote in message
...
== Peter R writes:

Bill Denton ) wrote:
And I don't know if this is a trick question, but if you are at 6000
(no
+500) wouldn't you be on an IFR flight plan, talking to ATC, and
receiving
traffic advisories?

In the US and outside of class B airspace, it is the pilot, not ATC,
who
is ultimately responsible for IFR/VFR traffic separation. A VFR
traffic
advisory to an IFR aircraft is a courtesy offered by ATC; it is not a
guarantee.

I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

dan.

--
PGP key at http://www.longhands.org/drg-pgp.txt Key Id:0x507D93DF

Bill Denton ) wrote:

No, the orignal poster presented the scenario. I simply pointed out that a
6000 feet he would be on an IFR flight plan, talking to ATC, and receiving
traffic from ATC.

6,000 feet guarantees an IFR flight plan? Really? You had better
notify the FAA about all those VFR pilots who fly around Denver, CO.

You introduced the passage and misinterpreted it. I provided a correct
interpretation.

OK, Bill, you win. Your string of non sequiturs throughout this portion
of the thread has worn me out. I have no idea what passage you think I
introduced, as in reality I didn't introduce any passage in this thread,
but nonetheless, you win. I didn't think you were a troll, since you
are a regular in this and other aviation forums, but your self-admitted
lack of any real aviation experience combined with your talent to post
with such authority and conviction now make me wonder.

--
Peter

Dan Girellini ) wrote:

I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

Yes, in the US VFR aircraft will receive separation services in class C
airspace, but is this the same level of service as the guaranteed
separation offered by class B? It is my understanding that the two are
not equivalent.

Hopefully one of the controllers who frequents this group will provide a
better explanation.



--
Peter

== Bill Denton writes:

"Dan Girellini" wrote in message

I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

No, separation is not provided by ATC.

Can you explain how I'm misinterpreting this from the AIM?

[3-2-4] Class C Airspace
....
e. Aircraft Separation. Separation is provided within the Class C airspace
and the outer area after two-way radio communications and radar contact
are established. VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft within the
Class C airspace by any of the following:

1. Visual separation.

2. 500 feet vertical; except when operating beneath a heavy jet.

3. Target resolution.

--
PGP key at http://www.longhands.org/drg-pgp.txt Key Id:0x507D93DF

Dan Girellini ) wrote:

I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

Yes, in the US VFR aircraft will receive separation services in class C
airspace, but is this the same level of service as the guaranteed
separation offered by class B? It is my understanding that the two are
not equivalent.

Hopefully one of the controllers who frequents this group will provide a
better explanation.



--
Peter

-- " " == Peter R writes:

Dan Girellini ) wrote:
I thought Class C services included IFR/VFR separation. Is that old/wrong
information?

Yes, in the US VFR aircraft will receive separation services in class C
airspace, but is this the same level of service as the guaranteed
separation offered by class B? It is my understanding that the two are not
equivalent.

What's in my Jepp text and afaict is confirmed in the AIM is that class C
provides only vfr/ifr separation whereas class B provides all acft separation
(ie vfr/vfr).

dan.

--
PGP key at http://www.longhands.org/drg-pgp.txt Key Id:0x507D93DF

Bill Denton wrote:

I am not sure what your point about VFR-on-top is, but as a reminder to
you, in the US VFR-on-TOP is a specific IFR clearance that must be
requested.


And if you are granted that clearance, you will be flying under what are
essentially Visual Flight Rules, you will be allowed to deviate from your
as-filed flight plan,

No. You must follow the flight plan just as if you were regular IFR.
Slight deviations for cloud clearance are OK. If you want a different
route then you must ask for and receive a new clearance.

Bill Denton wrote:

No, separation is not provided by ATC.

ATC provides separation between IFR and VFR aircraft within the class C.