Transponders Above Class C Airspace

A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.

I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local FSDO
for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good idea,
and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well beforehand on
the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.


A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as
the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?

Jim Vincent wrote:
A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as
the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?

I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Jim Vincent wrote:
A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a
transponder is required? What is your personal policy and
understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is
required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC
ding accordingly?

I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required:

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL

I didn't fully qualify this, above 10,000 feet MSL a transponder is not
required, even if you are within the lateral boundaries of B or C
airspace...

Marc

91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
9,000MSL.

The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
transponder?

BT

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
...
A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.

I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local
FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good
idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well
beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.


A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such
as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?

On May 7, 7:55 pm, "BT" wrote:
91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
9,000MSL.

The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
transponder?

BT

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message

...



A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a
transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required
to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether
one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C.

I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the
lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local
FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good
idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well
beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace.

A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to
interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is
required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If
the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such
as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've overflown Allentown Class C airspace on several occasions without
a transponder. I've spoken with both the FSDO and the Tower Boss, and
their interpretation was that I can do this as long as I complied with
the ATC Authorized Deviations bit which comes near the end of
91.215. In practice, this meant calling them up on the phone on the
day of a planned record flight prior to takeoff. This was followed
with a radio call while still a good 20 miles or so outside their
airspace.

On two occaisions, their "body english" on the radio was along the
lines of "yeah.. whatever." On the third, the guy was all gung-ho and
gave me traffic advisories every few minutes (to the point where it
was almost embarassing). He wished me good luck after clearing their
lateral boundaries and asked me to call in with results !

YMMV.

P3

BT wrote:
91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of
Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215:

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and
below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there
are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to
9,000MSL.

The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C
airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class
B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
transponder?

Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we
routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the
boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder)
without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively
encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but
for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C...

Marc

Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class C
airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C
airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1)
exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the
suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly
the Class C?

John Scott

My experience mirrors P3's.

Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class
C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the
way across. They were very polite and helpful.

I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on
whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my
current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and
power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the
current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I
have battery power.

2NO

most interesting location.. what airport that the Class C is so high?
Sounds like Colorado? Please let us know

BT

"John Scott" wrote in message
.. .

Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class
C airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C
airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1)
exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the
suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly
the Class C?

John Scott

ahh yes Mark... the above 10,000MSL exemption..
I kept my remarks to the "below 10KMSL" thinking
BT

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
. ..
BT wrote:
91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C
airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders.
The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no
factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder
within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling
of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER.

Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215:

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below
2,500 feet above the surface; and

Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but
there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering
the PHX to 9,000MSL.

The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class
C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with
Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no
transponder?

Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we
routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the
boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder)
without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively
encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but
for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C...

Marc