When to descend

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Coming from the NE, you may descend to 2700' after crossing 30 NM from
UDUZI (in the Left Base Area of the TAA).

Since there seems to be some variation in the responses to your question,
here is the relevant AIM paragraph:

Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are expected
to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of the TAA at the
altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control.
Cleared
direct to an Initial Approach Fix (IAF) without a clearance for the
procedure does not authorize a pilot to descend to a lower TAA altitude.

Perhaps the controller should have said "...maintain 4000 until entering
the TAA". But I think his intent is clear. If he wanted you at 4000
until crossing UDUZI, he should have either stated that explicitly, or not
cleared you for the approach.


He doesn't say whether this is an actual clearance received or a
hypothetical scenario. The book phraseology would be, "Cleared to UDUZI,
maintain four thousand until entering the TAA, cleared RNAV runway niner
left approach." If he's already crossed the TAA boundary the clearance
would be just, "Cleared RNAV runway niner left approach."

On 10/9/2007 1:20 PM, Steven P. McNicoll wrote the following:


He doesn't say whether this is an actual clearance received or a
hypothetical scenario. The book phraseology would be, "Cleared to UDUZI,
maintain four thousand until entering the TAA, cleared RNAV runway niner
left approach." If he's already crossed the TAA boundary the clearance
would be just, "Cleared RNAV runway niner left approach."


"Cleared direct UDUZI, maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L
approach." sounds like a lot of clearances I have received. Possibly not by the
book verbiage, but real world IMHO.

Why would you read anything into it? I'm not being argumentative; I just don't
understand why you would not "maintain 4000' until established" and at that
point begin to descend. Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and
"request lower."

It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?

"Mitty" wrote in message
...

"Cleared direct UDUZI, maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L
approach." sounds like a lot of clearances I have received. Possibly not
by the book verbiage, but real world IMHO.

Why would you read anything into it?


I don't.



I'm not being argumentative; I just don't understand why you would not
"maintain 4000' until established" and at that point begin to descend.
Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and "request lower."


I don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.



It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?


Then he's got a deal.

don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.


I'm with Mitty on this one. AIM Section 5-4-5.d.4(b) Says:

"Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are
expected to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of
the TAA at the altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air
traffic control."

If the clearance was indeed "...maintain 4000 until established" that
would fit the "..unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control"
clause.

To put this to a test, ask yourself when would you report established
on the approach if asked by ATC to ".. report established on the
approach"? My answer would be when I'm on one of the depicted
portions of the approach and not the TAA.

I guess one could argue that the TAA is a depicted portion of the
approach but I can't find any official publication pointing to that
fact.

Still not arguing, just trying to understand ...

On 10/9/2007 2:38 PM, Steven P. McNicoll wrote the following:

I'm not being argumentative; I just don't understand why you would not
"maintain 4000' until established" and at that point begin to descend.
Or, if you didn't like the profile, get back to ATC and "request lower."


I don't have to request lower from ATC, clearance for the approach
authorizes me to descend to 2700 at the TAA boundary.



So the boundary is equivalent to becoming established? Or the "until
established" bit is bad phraseology or redundant?

It could be that ATC had crossing traffic at 3000' -- no?


Then he's got a deal.


What if you _were_ the controller and _did_ have the crossing traffic. What
would be the clearance you would give to the guy at 4000' to keep him up there
until the potential deal was over? Simply delay the approach clearance?

"gman" wrote in message
ups.com...

I'm with Mitty on this one. AIM Section 5-4-5.d.4(b) Says:

"Pilots entering the TAA and cleared by air traffic control, are
expected to proceed directly to the IAF associated with that area of
the TAA at the altitude depicted, unless otherwise cleared by air
traffic control."

If the clearance was indeed "...maintain 4000 until established" that
would fit the "..unless otherwise cleared by air traffic control"
clause.


You didn't go far enough:

"Cleared direct to an Initial Approach Fix (IAF) without a clearance for the
procedure does not authorize a pilot to descend to a lower TAA altitude. If
a pilot desires a lower altitude without an approach clearance, request the
lower TAA altitude."



To put this to a test, ask yourself when would you report established
on the approach if asked by ATC to ".. report established on the
approach"? My answer would be when I'm on one of the depicted
portions of the approach and not the TAA.


My answer would be when I'm within the TAA, because a TAA is by definition a
published portion of the approach.

TERMINAL ARRIVAL AREA (TAA)? The TAA is controlled airspace established in
conjunction with the Standard or Modified T and I RNAV approach
configurations. In the standard TAA, there are three areas: straight-in,
left base, and right base. The arc boundaries of the three areas of the TAA
are published portions of the approach and allow aircraft to transition from
the en route structure direct to the nearest IAF. TAAs will also eliminate
or reduce feeder routes, departure extensions, and procedure turns or course
reversal.



I guess one could argue that the TAA is a depicted portion of the
approach but I can't find any official publication pointing to that
fact.


It's in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

"Mitty" wrote in message
...

So the boundary is equivalent to becoming established? Or the "until
established" bit is bad phraseology or redundant?


The TAAs are published portions of the approach, that's right out of the TAA
definition provided in the P/CG:

TERMINAL ARRIVAL AREA (TAA)- The TAA is controlled airspace established in
conjunction with the Standard or Modified T and I RNAV approach
configurations. In the standard TAA, there are three areas: straight-in,
left base, and right base. The arc boundaries of the three areas of the TAA
are published portions of the approach and allow aircraft to transition from
the en route structure direct to the nearest IAF. TAAs will also eliminate
or reduce feeder routes, departure extensions, and procedure turns or course
reversal.



What if you _were_ the controller and _did_ have the crossing traffic.
What would be the clearance you would give to the guy at 4000' to keep him
up there until the potential deal was over? Simply delay the approach
clearance?


That'd do it.

In article , Bee wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

You are coming from northeast of SFB. ATC says "Cleared direct UDUZI,
maintain 4000' until established, cleared RNAV 9L approach."

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0710/00917R9L.PDF


When do you descend below 4,000 and to what altitude?



30 miles from UDUZI, 2700 MSL.


correct.

Hmmmmm....I'm not sure I buy this. The clearance stated "...maintain 4000'
*until established*..." which to me says that I'm to remain at 4000' until
I am on a *charted* section of the approach. Simply being in the TAA
does not mean I'm on a charted section of the approach. For this clearance,
I would say I'm on a charted section of the approach after crossing the IAF
(UDUZI). I would not descend below 4000' until after crossing UDUZI, and
then I would descent to 2000' as depicted. Or am I being too conservative
here?

-- Dane

"Dane Spearing" wrote in message
...

Hmmmmm....I'm not sure I buy this. The clearance stated "...maintain
4000'
*until established*..." which to me says that I'm to remain at 4000' until
I am on a *charted* section of the approach. Simply being in the TAA
does not mean I'm on a charted section of the approach. For this
clearance,
I would say I'm on a charted section of the approach after crossing the
IAF
(UDUZI). I would not descend below 4000' until after crossing UDUZI, and
then I would descent to 2000' as depicted. Or am I being too conservative
here?


TAAs are published portions of the approach, when you cross the TAA boundary
you're *established* on the approach.

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:20:14 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

He doesn't say whether this is an actual clearance received or a
hypothetical scenario. The book phraseology would be, "Cleared to UDUZI,
maintain four thousand until entering the TAA, cleared RNAV runway niner
left approach." If he's already crossed the TAA boundary the clearance
would be just, "Cleared RNAV runway niner left approach."

Exactly.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)