TFR Bust = Criminal Record For Pilots?

Is this new change TFR wording the result of our new Administrator
who, unlike the previous one, holds an airmens certificate?

While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing immediately
before departing, or who fail to concern themselves with current
airspace information published on Sectional Charts, or otherwise
display wanton negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may
deserve criminal prosecution, such criminal charges against a pilot
whose inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard to
persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

CRIMINAL REFERENCE IN TFRS RANKLES AOPA
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196411)
AOPA says it's concerned about a not-so-subtle change in the
wording of the text descriptions of temporary flight restrictions
(TFRs). The FAA is now warning pilots they could be held
criminally responsible for violating TFRs. AOPA says the agency
has always had that ability but seeing it in black and white
raises the specter that those powers will actually be employed.
AOPA President Phil Boyer has written the FAA asking that pilots
who accidentally bust TFRs not face criminal proceedings.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196411
Further, if legal balance is to be maintained, it would seem only
equitable that FSS briefers who fail to brief TFRs should also be
subject to criminal proceedings.

"LD" == Larry Dighera writes:

LD While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing
LD immediately before departing,... or otherwise display wanton
LD negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may deserve
LD criminal prosecution,

So a pilot who simply fails to get a briefing--something hundreds or
thousands of pilots do every day--"may deserve criminal prosecution".

LD criminal charges against a pilot whose
LD inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard
LD to persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

Oh, you think? And how does one inadvertently violate a TFR if they
have gotten a briefing?

This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago. If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate war
was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits might be
the clue some need.
--
Religion, comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a
disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere else
but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.
~ Sigmund Freud

On Oct 22, 4:58 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
Is this new change TFR wording the result of our new Administrator
who, unlike the previous one, holds an airmens certificate?

While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing immediately
before departing, or who fail to concern themselves with current
airspace information published on Sectional Charts, or otherwise
display wanton negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may
deserve criminal prosecution, such criminal charges against a pilot
whose inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard to
persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

CRIMINAL REFERENCE IN TFRS RANKLES AOPA
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196411)
AOPA says it's concerned about a not-so-subtle change in the
wording of the text descriptions of temporary flight restrictions
(TFRs). The FAA is now warning pilots they could be held
criminally responsible for violating TFRs. AOPA says the agency
has always had that ability but seeing it in black and white
raises the specter that those powers will actually be employed.
AOPA President Phil Boyer has written the FAA asking that pilots
who accidentally bust TFRs not face criminal proceedings.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196411
Further, if legal balance is to be maintained, it would seem only
equitable that FSS briefers who fail to brief TFRs should also be
subject to criminal proceedings.

I think that the Dept of Homeland security needs to set up TDRs
(Temporary Driving Restrictions) which are not marked by signs, and
can come and go at any time. All drivers of automobiles must check
with their local DMV prior to driving on the roads to ensure that they
don't violate them. If a TDR is violated, it is a criminal offense.
Everywhere the president goes, a 30nm TDR will appear around the
location where the president will be, and only authorized vehicles
will be allowed on the road. Need to run to the store for milk?
Tough, wait untilt he president is done and leaves...

On Oct 22, 10:34 am, Bob Fry wrote:
"LD" == Larry Dighera writes:

LD While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing
LD immediately before departing,... or otherwise display wanton
LD negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may deserve
LD criminal prosecution,

So a pilot who simply fails to get a briefing--something hundreds or
thousands of pilots do every day--"may deserve criminal prosecution".

LD criminal charges against a pilot whose
LD inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard
LD to persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

Oh, you think? And how does one inadvertently violate a TFR if they
have gotten a briefing?

This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago. If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate war
was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits might be
the clue some need.
--
Religion, comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a
disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere else
but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.
~ Sigmund Freud

I recall one morning after Katrina when I was in the local pattern in
Mobile,AL (KBFM). The USCG uses KMOB/KBFM for a lot of training and
one of their helicopters called for his clearance back to KGPT
(Gulfport) and the tower asked if they knew they were not going to
make it back before the TFR time. Slight pause..."WHAT TFR are you
talking about?" says the shocked coastie. Well, after Katrina, all the
politicians in the world were trying to make the TV news and someone
decided to visit on a spur of the moment and a TFR was pushed into
place. The coasties had done a very complete pre-flight and nothing
was mentioned until the tower advised them. So ......the problem still
exists about how to know if you are going to penetrate a TFR if there
is no information disseminated in a timely fashion. I suspect the same
will happen, as it does each year about this same time, for the
Santana winds in CA. Those same freaking winds have been blowing at
the same time frame every year since I began flying in SOCal the 50's.
Difference is now they can put a TFR in place within hours of a new
fire and a pilot who got a complete briefing only hours before can
blunder smack into one and never know it until he gets the ass chewing
followed by a letter and giant Excedrin headaches.
Ahhh lets hear it for the ever more protective government who know
what is best for us misguided children......
Ol S&B

On Oct 22, 2:03 pm, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Ol Shy & Bashful posted:





On Oct 22, 10:34 am, Bob Fry wrote:
"LD" == Larry Dighera writes:

While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing
immediately before departing,... or otherwise display wanton
negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may deserve
criminal prosecution,

So a pilot who simply fails to get a briefing--something hundreds or
thousands of pilots do every day--"may deserve criminal prosecution".

criminal charges against a pilot whose
inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard
to persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

Oh, you think? And how does one inadvertently violate a TFR if they
have gotten a briefing?

This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago. If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate
war was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits
might be the clue some need.
--
Religion, comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a
disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere
else but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.
~ Sigmund Freud

I recall one morning after Katrina when I was in the local pattern in
Mobile,AL (KBFM). The USCG uses KMOB/KBFM for a lot of training and
one of their helicopters called for his clearance back to KGPT
(Gulfport) and the tower asked if they knew they were not going to
make it back before the TFR time. Slight pause..."WHAT TFR are you
talking about?" says the shocked coastie. Well, after Katrina, all the
politicians in the world were trying to make the TV news and someone
decided to visit on a spur of the moment and a TFR was pushed into
place. The coasties had done a very complete pre-flight and nothing
was mentioned until the tower advised them. So ......the problem still
exists about how to know if you are going to penetrate a TFR if there
is no information disseminated in a timely fashion. I suspect the same
will happen, as it does each year about this same time, for the
Santana winds in CA. Those same freaking winds have been blowing at
the same time frame every year since I began flying in SOCal the 50's.
Difference is now they can put a TFR in place within hours of a new
fire and a pilot who got a complete briefing only hours before can
blunder smack into one and never know it until he gets the ass chewing
followed by a letter and giant Excedrin headaches.
Ahhh lets hear it for the ever more protective government who know
what is best for us misguided children......

Oh, come on, guys, let's get into the sport of it all!

Driving the wrong way on one way streets can be criminalized and the
directional signs put on programmable billboard-type signs. Drivers would
have to call the local authorities every morning to find out which
direction the streets between home and work are going, but there is always
the possibility that they'll changed en-route.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if you drive the wrong way, a Humvee will show up and point a 50
caliber machine gun at you until you pull over...

Recently, Ol Shy & Bashful posted:

On Oct 22, 10:34 am, Bob Fry wrote:
"LD" == Larry Dighera writes:

While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing
immediately before departing,... or otherwise display wanton
negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may deserve
criminal prosecution,

So a pilot who simply fails to get a briefing--something hundreds or
thousands of pilots do every day--"may deserve criminal prosecution".

criminal charges against a pilot whose
inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard
to persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

Oh, you think? And how does one inadvertently violate a TFR if they
have gotten a briefing?

This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago. If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate
war was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits
might be the clue some need.
--
Religion, comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a
disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere
else but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.
~ Sigmund Freud

I recall one morning after Katrina when I was in the local pattern in
Mobile,AL (KBFM). The USCG uses KMOB/KBFM for a lot of training and
one of their helicopters called for his clearance back to KGPT
(Gulfport) and the tower asked if they knew they were not going to
make it back before the TFR time. Slight pause..."WHAT TFR are you
talking about?" says the shocked coastie. Well, after Katrina, all the
politicians in the world were trying to make the TV news and someone
decided to visit on a spur of the moment and a TFR was pushed into
place. The coasties had done a very complete pre-flight and nothing
was mentioned until the tower advised them. So ......the problem still
exists about how to know if you are going to penetrate a TFR if there
is no information disseminated in a timely fashion. I suspect the same
will happen, as it does each year about this same time, for the
Santana winds in CA. Those same freaking winds have been blowing at
the same time frame every year since I began flying in SOCal the 50's.
Difference is now they can put a TFR in place within hours of a new
fire and a pilot who got a complete briefing only hours before can
blunder smack into one and never know it until he gets the ass chewing
followed by a letter and giant Excedrin headaches.
Ahhh lets hear it for the ever more protective government who know
what is best for us misguided children......

Oh, come on, guys, let's get into the sport of it all!

Driving the wrong way on one way streets can be criminalized and the
directional signs put on programmable billboard-type signs. Drivers would
have to call the local authorities every morning to find out which
direction the streets between home and work are going, but there is always
the possibility that they'll changed en-route.

Neil

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:34:34 -0700, Bob Fry
wrote in :

"LD" == Larry Dighera writes:

LD While I believe those airmen who fail to get a briefing
LD immediately before departing,... or otherwise display wanton
LD negligence and disregard for FAA regulations may deserve
LD criminal prosecution,

So a pilot who simply fails to get a briefing--something hundreds or
thousands of pilots do every day--"may deserve criminal prosecution".

Are you familiar with CFR Title 14, Part 91, § 91.103 Preflight
action:

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become
familiar with all available information concerning that flight....

LD criminal charges against a pilot whose
LD inadvertent violation of a TFR results in no harm nor hazard
LD to persons nor property seems inappropriate to me.

Oh, you think? And how does one inadvertently violate a TFR if they
have gotten a briefing?

Let me count the ways:

The TFR pops-up after the pilot departs and is not in radio contact
with ATC.

A complete electrical system failure, large geomagnetic
disturbance, failed chronograph, and chart departs through an
unlatched door in flight.

Loss of situational awareness due to mitigating circumstances.

A large change in barometric pressure occurred without PICs
knowledge.

An emergency situation forced a decision to violate the TFR.

...

This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago.

It's becoming more and more evident daily.

If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate war
was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits might be
the clue some need.

It is my understanding that the FAA has had the authority to press
criminal charges prior to president Gilligan's term.

On 2007-10-22 08:34:34 -0700, Bob Fry said:


This administration is out of control. Of course we knew that a long
time ago. If the killing of hundreds of thousands in an illegimate war
was not enough to warn us, criminalizing common flying habits might be
the clue some need.

What is out of control are some of the reactions to this. If you want
to know what AOPA really said, go to their web site. AOPA is not
opposed to criminal penalties for pilots who willfully and repeatedly
violate TFRs.

The language of the FAA notam is this: "Any person who knowingly or
willfully violates the rules concerning operations in this airspace is
subject to certain criminal penalties under 49 USC 46307."

I think that is clear enough. You had to know you were violating the
TFR and deliberately did it anyway to face a criminal penalty.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Larry Dighera wrote:

An emergency situation forced a decision to violate the TFR.


In an emergency, there is no violation of the TFR. The PIC has the
authority to devitate....

Been there, done that, and the FAA didn't even mention the TFR.

It is my understanding that the FAA has had the authority to press
criminal charges prior to president Gilligan's term.

Technically, the FBI and the US Attorney would be the ones to prosecute
under Federal criminal statutes. The FAA has no criminal enforcement powers.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

Difference is now they can put a TFR in place within hours of a new
fire and a pilot who got a complete briefing only hours before can
blunder smack into one and never know it until he gets the ass chewing
followed by a letter and giant Excedrin headaches.
Ahhh lets hear it for the ever more protective government who know
what is best for us misguided children......

I encountered this several times over the summer, while flying in Western
MT and Centeral ID. Fire TFRs don't carry the same enforcement as the
political/"security" types. The crews that are fighting the fire are well
aware that the FAA is dismally slow at disseminating info about fire TFRs. I
encountered one fire in eastern Idaho that had no TFR when I took off 2 hrs.
earlier. There were firebombers and lead aircraft working the fire as I
passed by. The TFR finally showed up in the FAA system 36 hrs. later.
Conversely, on my way back to AZ through UT, I had to skirt a TFR that had
been very active a week prior. When I landed nearby for fuel, I found out
that the fire had been extinguished and the crews had been gone for 3 days.

Generally speaking, if you avoid flying over areas that are actively on
fire and producing smoke, no one will bother you.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200710/1