Commercial Rating for Towing Gliders not needed? in US

On Nov 1, 12:49*pm, "rec.aviation.soaring"
wrote:
Seems to me that if a tow pilot is getting any
compensation for towing in their own aircraft or someone else's beyond
pro-rata gas money it is a commercial flight. That is my opinion based
on all the restrictive rulings I have seen on sharing expenses on
power flights and that even consider free use of an airplane to build
time as compensation.

Stuart,
What you wrote seems to be in accordance to the GENERAL part of the
rule but seems to completely ignore the freedom allowed by the
specific exception for glider towing. I have a sense that a lot of
people are overlooking the possibilities that the exception allows.
Chris

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:
On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.


As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T wrote:
On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:



On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.

On Nov 1, 9:00*pm, Tony wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T wrote:



On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:

On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.

The FAA has defined compensation as not only money but also "free" or
discounted flight time. There is no difference in the FAA's eyes
between the two. Unless the tow pilot is paying money out of his own
pocket to tow, he is receiving compensation in the form of free flight
time. FAA regulations specifically exempt private pilots from the
prohibition from receiving compensation for towing gilders or
ultralights. Whether that compensation is cash or free flight time or
both, it doesn't matter.

Insurance companies can require whatever they want in the way of
qualifications for coverage but requiring a commercial ticket for
towing is their restriction, not the FAA's.

On Nov 1, 7:35*pm, chris wrote:
On Nov 1, 12:49*pm, "rec.aviation.soaring"
wrote:

Seems to me that if a tow pilot is getting any
compensation for towing in their own aircraft or someone else's beyond
pro-rata gas money it is a commercial flight. That is my opinion based
on all the restrictive rulings I have seen on sharing expenses on
power flights and that even consider free use of an airplane to build
time as compensation.

Stuart,
What you wrote seems to be in accordance to the GENERAL part of the
rule but seems to completely ignore the freedom allowed by the
specific exception for glider towing. *I have a sense that a lot of
people are overlooking the possibilities that the exception allows.
Chris

I got my commercial rating about 11 years ago. I just looked at the
old rules versus the current regulations and I am now convinced that
the FAA DOES allow private-rated pilots to tow gliders and ultralights
for compensation. Insurance is a separate matter. Even though I am
commercial-rated I am not covered by my standard aircraft insurance if
I tow gliders in my Cessna 180.

Stuart

On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T wrote:





On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:

On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
picking up what they want to read.
Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.

So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
magic word.. Compensation.

(c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
(d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
(e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
mentioned
(f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
salesman, not pilot)
(g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
Compensation...

If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

On Nov 2, 4:47*pm, T wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony wrote:



On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T wrote:

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:

On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
picking up what they want to read.
Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.

So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
magic word.. Compensation.

(c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
(d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
(e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
mentioned
(f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
salesman, not pilot)
(g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
Compensation...

If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

I recall that at one time, in the last few years, the SSA got a ruling
(and published), a letter from the FAA, regarding Pvt. Pilot Tow
pilots. The ruling basically said that flight time for Pvt Pilots
towing gliders in a club was not to be considered as "compensation"
and that a Commercial license was not required to tow. I can't recall
what was ruled for the commercial operation or commercial rides in a
club.

I spent some time looking around the SSA site but was not able to find
the letter. Does any one else remember it and know where it is
located?

Mike

On Nov 2, 5:46*pm, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Nov 2, 4:47*pm, T wrote:





On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony wrote:

On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T wrote:

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown wrote:

On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.

Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
picking up what they want to read.
Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.

So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
magic word.. Compensation.

(c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
(d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
(e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
mentioned
(f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
salesman, not pilot)
(g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
Compensation...

If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

I recall that at one time, in the last few years, the SSA got a ruling
(and published), a letter from the FAA, regarding Pvt. Pilot Tow
pilots. *The ruling basically said that flight time for Pvt Pilots
towing gliders in a club was not to be considered as "compensation"
and that a Commercial license was not required to tow. *I can't recall
what was ruled for the commercial operation or commercial rides in a
club.

I spent some time looking around the SSA site but was not able to find
the letter. *Does any one else remember it and know where it is
located?

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I believe you are correct.. I may have a copy of that letter in the
club files.
I'll take a look.
The "not to be considered compensation" was from the rewrite of
61.113(g) that I believe the SSA helped get through.
This allowed clubs to operate with more pilots available to them.

If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

I'm confused. You first say that (g) allows a private pilot to
receive compensation (flight time towards a rating) but then you still
believe that a private pilot can tow but not be compensated for it?

are you trying to delineate between monetary and non-monetary
compensation? attempting to determine what you think the FAA's intent
was with a reg instead of what they wrote?

On Nov 2, 8:51*pm, Tony wrote:
If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

I'm confused. *You first say that (g) allows a private pilot to
receive compensation (flight time towards a rating) but then you still
believe that a private pilot can tow but not be compensated for it?

are you trying to delineate between monetary and non-monetary
compensation? attempting to determine what you think the FAA's intent
was with a reg instead of what they wrote?

Yes.. we are delineating between monitary and non-monitary.
The FAA had determined, and rewrote 61.113(g) in the early 90s to
reflect that (I think it was 1994)
That's why I said it was not allowed.. BEFORE THE REWRITE,, I believe
then it was 61.118 in 1990.
The FAA, with the help of SSA , determinded that a private pilot
logging hours for glider tow, was not compensation.
We are looking for that letter.

T