Sport Pilot Glider Rating?

Originally Posted by Mike the Strike

On Jan 3, 1:44*pm, "vaughn" wrote:
"Brian" wrote in message

...

The biggest problem with the sport pilot glider certificate is there
is little incentive to get it over a private certifcate. As I recall
the training in nearly identical. One just has to take the Knowledge
test (I think) and find a DPE to take a practical test, instead of
with a CFI. Most soaring sites are already set up for this. This will
add a few hundred dollars and some additional study for the knowledge
test, but then one does not have the limitations of the Sport pilot
certificate.

I agree with what you say. *I would try to talk any new student into going for
the Private, but that wasn't the original question. *The OP seemed to be asking
about a glider add-on to an existing Sport Pilot certificate. *That is actually
a pretty simple thing for any glider school to do providing they have a suitable
trainer and two CFIG's.willing to sign.

Vaughn

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

Mike

I think most two seat gliders probably come in under the weight restriction for LS aircraft. No one at the gliderport I fly at has ever had anyone try to do this type of glider rating but apparently it can be done.

Walt

On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

On Jan 4, 4:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

You may have seen a powered aircraft operated as you describe, but not
legally if type certificated. Limits for determination
of LSA eligibility are as originally certified.
UH

On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T wrote:
On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:





On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike

At 05:39 05 January 2011, Mike the Strike wrote:
I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Given that the FAA has a long list of type certified light aircraft that
can be flown as LSAs (various Aeroncas, Luscombes, Ercoupes, Pipers,
Taylorcrafts) one wonders why the compliant certified gliders (2-22, 2-33,
Ka7) weren't also added to this list. And, the possibility was well known
early on in the rule-making process, I know as I asked about it years ago
during an FAA session years ago at an SSA convention. What happened, and
can it be fixed? Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Marc

In article Mike the Strike writes:

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike


http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/ lists two gliders (actually one is
a motorglider) that they claim are S-LSA. One is the Lambada and the other
is the TST-14 (available as self launch or unpowered).

Following the links from there, one finds a note that N107SM was registered
in 2007 as a LSA glider.


Alan

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
At 05:39 05 January 2011, Mike the Strike wrote:
I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Given that the FAA has a long list of type certified light aircraft that
can be flown as LSAs (various Aeroncas, Luscombes, Ercoupes, Pipers,
Taylorcrafts)

Any list you may have found is for information only and not part of any
regulation. The answer is in front of you, in FAR Part 1.1

"Light-Sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered lift
that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following" ;
(the LSA limitations follow, including 120 knots Vne for gliders)

This means that any certified aircraft can be flown by a sport pilot as long at
it meets the LSA limitations and has ALWAYS met those regulations.

Vaughn

"

On Jan 4, 9:39*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T wrote:





On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. *Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. *If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike

You may be correct that no gliders have been certified in the light
sport category.
But the do not have to be certified as light sport to be flown by a
light sport pilot.
They only need to be certified in the standard or experimental
category and their listed certified MTOW and Vne meet the light sport
criteria.
T

Originally Posted by T[_2_]

On Jan 4, 9:39*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Jan 4, 11:46*pm, T wrote:





On Jan 4, 1:40*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Jan 5, 1:09*am, Mike the Strike wrote:

Except that the Sport certificate is only valid for flying light sport
aircraft. *I am not aware that any two-seat LSA gliders exist.

The only thing stopping most of them is a too-high Vne. There are a
number of older two seat gliders with Vne until 120 knots:

Ka7: 92
ASK13: 108
Janus: 119

It's easy, and I suspect even legal, to simply make up a plate with a
lower Vne than the manufacturer originally specified. There are many
cases where a glider model's Vne has been reduced due to problems
discovered later such as flutter. Can you (or your engineer) reduce a
single glider's placarded Vne because of repairs, or simply because
you feel that it is "old"? It's no great hardship in most glider
flying to lose a few knots off the top speed.

I've definitely seen a powered aircraft operated as a LSA by replacing
the placard with one specifying a lower MTOW (which was then
ignored...).

No.. you cannot change the MTOW or Vne of an aircraft, airplane or
glider from what it was originally certified at just to make it
qualify for LSA. If you have seen this in powered aircraft, do you
have an example you would like to cite?
In any case, it is not legal, and if the pilot did so to be able to
fly under LSA rules sans medical, he may have just invalidated his
insurance, his airworthy certificate and would be subject to penalties
and possible loss of certificates from the FAA.

Reducing an "experimental" aircraft due to "re-enginnering" would
subject the aircraft to a new airworthy certification and review and a
new round of flying off phase 1 and phase 2 requirements. And if it is
an imported aircraft.. even more headaches are possible.

T

I still maintain my original assertion that no gliders have been
certified by FAA as LSA. *Certainly a number could meet the
limitations, but decertification would be non-trivial. *If I am wrong,
please cite specific aircraft.

Mike

You may be correct that no gliders have been certified in the light
sport category.
But the do not have to be certified as light sport to be flown by a
light sport pilot.
They only need to be certified in the standard or experimental
category and their listed certified MTOW and Vne meet the light sport
criteria.
T

I know I picked up on this tread long after, but you are incorrect. The LSA speed limitation does not apply to the airframe Vne. the 120 rule is the maximum continuous straight and level flight speed at sea level. I fly under sport pilot, and legally fly SLSA, ELSA and experimental aircraft that have Vne of over 150kts. So unless a glider can maintain a continuous 120kts straight and level flight at sea level. I don't see this as an issue.