tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

On Jul 13, 7:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

I've had a rope part after the glider was airborne but before the tow
plane lifted off. Land straight ahead.
I've had an improperly connected Schweizer hook release at about 50ft
on it's own. Land straight ahead.
And as previously reported, I've had engine problems with the tow
plane and asked the glider to release at 250ft before the engine
outright failed. (It did not fail.)

T

On Jul 13, 9:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:

On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-.......

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

KJC

i was towing last year when the rope broke at somewhere about 250 feet
with our 2-22 behind. The pilot made a very excellent choice of
taking the easy more or less straight ahead into the wind landing in a
dirt field just north of the airport.

On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

On Jul 13, 10:07*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

Bruce, because many gliderports have shorter single runways. You may
be thinking of operating off long runways at larger airports with
cross runways.

Darryl

On Jul 14, 6:45*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 13, 10:07*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:





On Jul 14, 2:52*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break 12 days ago. The glider moved about 50 ft before
coming to rest.

I've seen several similar breaks over the years.

As far as I know, our club has had precisely one rope break in the air
in the 25 years I've been a member. It happened at around 1500 or 2000
ft and the glider end or the rope and the rings dropped into an
electrical substation, which caused them to become a little unhappy.

I don't know why people are talking about landing downwind from 200ft.
When I've done practice rope breaks it's been about a 90 degree turn
onto a short downwind for the crosswind runway, but almost invariably
when you get onto base for that you figure you've got plenty of height
to turn that into a close in downwind for the active runway.
Certainly, if there's a reasonable wind (20 - 25 knots, say) then it's
easy (and better) to go right around and land upwind even if you land
a fair way up the active runway and/or still at a 20 or 30 degree
angle to it.

Bruce, because many gliderports have shorter single runways. You may
be thinking of operating off long runways at larger airports with
cross runways.

We operate off approximately 450m of grass which forms the long edge
of a right angle triangle. We do have a lot of width or varying
directions available, at the cost of a shorter available distance, but
it's hardly huge.

(the grass is surrounded by tarsealed taxiways (decommissioned
runways) which are theoretically available for undershoot/overrun, at
the cost of a "shout", but past that there is a fence and then km of
very unlandable retail complexes and houses)

Have you ever considered a steeply banked side slipping turn ?
You may have a high rate of descent, but the radius of turn is so
small that the duration is very short, making the height loss small,
and you do not need to increase airspeed to do it.


Gilbert

Slipping turn on low rope break???? (We are talking "just a bit above
200' rope break" right?)

No, I have never considered this........I see no benefit and some
serious problems.......

Steep turn (about 45 degrees bank)...yes......if you consider the
two major factors in the 180 turn, time and sink ......you come out
with around 45 degree bank as the optimum combination.....It will
yield the least loss of altitude......remember that you need to "roll
up" to 45 degrees and "roll out" to level....so its steep only in the
middle portion of the turn.

Airspeed should be approx the same as a "normal" pattern.....but no
time to be looking at the indicator, (has too much delay anyway) so
simply establish the "normal" nose slightly down attitude....and
coordinated turn...

But a slipping turn???? I don't want to loose excess altitude in the
turn......I want to complete the turn with the least possible loss of
altitude......once I "know I can make it" I reach for spoilers...
(like 3/4 the way thru the 180) then, on (downwind) final, use
spoiler as nesessary, and add slip if necessary....but no slip in the
turn!


Cookie

On Jul 13, 10:52*pm, Kevin Christner
wrote:

Can anyone tell me if they've had an actual rope break below ~200 or
even ~400ft. *I have never, ever heard of one.

I had a rope break at 150' on my seventh student solo flight. I'm
glad we covered this in pre solo training.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

There are two things important here. 1. The importance of being ready to handle the rope break by practice. Like it or not, this can happen and the importance of planning cannot be overemphasized. Which direction do you turn? Can you make the 180 and then make the field? Do you land straight ahead? Which field do I go for? Do I mush it into the trees? These need to be thought of in advance. The two or three seconds you hesitate might cost you your life. 2. The importance of doing all we can to reduce the possibility of an actual rope break.

This confirms the need for the hook up person to be vigilant in the inspection of the rope AND rings prior to launch. What percentage of a 200 foot rope is inspected prior to each launch? How often do we take a good look at the rings, either the two on a Tost or the one on a Schweizer hook? I try to catch the rope as near to the tow plane as I can and let it flow across my pants and thru my fingers feeling for partial breaks, I have found two in the last two years. I have also seen rings which were beginning to crack, haven't seen one out on the flight line but have been shown them in the past. These things DO happen.

The myriad of things that can go wrong on tow such as drive brakes being open, canopy flying open, tail dolly left on and the like can be reduced or eliminated by using the checklist properly. The hook up guy can help to reduce these problems by being an extra set of eyes.

Maintaining proper position on tow, watching for signals from the tow plane, KNOWING the difference between a wing wag and a rudder wag can save our lives at those critical moments. Remembering too that there are at least two and sometimes three lives at stake on tow. (or 4 in a 2-32.)

To see accidents happen with DPE's, CFI-G's and otherwise experienced pilots drives home the need to remember that this can happen even to the best of pilots. If a current, experienced pilot blows it at a critical moment, what's going to happen to the guy who flies twice a year?

Walt

In article ,
Gilbert Smith wrote:


Have you ever considered a steeply banked side slipping turn ?
You may have a high rate of descent, but the radius of turn is so
small that the duration is very short, making the height loss small,
and you do not need to increase airspeed to do it.


We know that angle of attack is the concern in stall avoidance....any
stall spin accident off of low rope break has to have had too much
angle of attack, one way or another....This means too much stick back
pressure....This is why I like to see an obvious stick forward and
nose pitch down reaction upon rope break.....also smooth control
inputs....

Gilbert

What is the benefit of slipping?


On the topic of a non-coordinated turn at low altitude:

This happened at the Auburn-Opelika Airport (AUO). I was present when an
old-timer CFI was instructing a friend of mine to do this or I wouldn't
have believed it. His advice for making a turn back at low altitude
after an engine failure (aircraft was a Piper Warrior):

"Keep the wings level and turn as tight as you can with just the
rudder".


That has to be the scariest thing I have ever heard an instructor say.
Far worse than the CFI-G in our club who was constantly warning students
about loss of airspeed due to turning downwind...