Aviation crash videos on-line

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear Dudley,

I notice that you only reply to the few parts of messages of which you
FEEL
to have the right on your side. Any other parts of the message you
just
leave unanswered. To me it is clear that you are only shouting your
opinion,
and are not ready to discuss the arguments that are put forward by
anybody.
I call that ignorant.

I believe I've made my point about both you and your site quite clear.
I've freely engaged all comers on the issues both pro and con as they
have come up. As for avoiding dialog, I'll be happy to engage you on any
comment you wish to make. Go on; make your case!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

All right, I'll put it to you as straight forward as possible:

How can you be a demonstration pilot and object to people shooting and
shearing photos and videos of your actions, even if these include ultimate
****-ups resulting in many casualties ?

I'm very curious about your reply !

Iwan



"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear Dudley,

I notice that you only reply to the few parts of messages of which you
FEEL
to have the right on your side. Any other parts of the message you
just
leave unanswered. To me it is clear that you are only shouting your
opinion,
and are not ready to discuss the arguments that are put forward by
anybody.
I call that ignorant.

I believe I've made my point about both you and your site quite clear.
I've freely engaged all comers on the issues both pro and con as they
have come up. As for avoiding dialog, I'll be happy to engage you on any
comment you wish to make. Go on; make your case!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
All right, I'll put it to you as straight forward as possible:

How can you be a demonstration pilot and object to people shooting and
shearing photos and videos of your actions, even if these include
ultimate
****-ups resulting in many casualties ?

I'm very curious about your reply !

Iwan

In the demonstration community we have no objection whatsoever to crash
video being used for the purpose of crash investigation or news
reporting. These things relate directly to the issues of flight safety.
Where on earth did you get the idea we objected to video being used in
this manner...surely not from me. I've stated this quite clearly in
prior posts.
As for the "****ups"; yes, they happen unfortunately, and when they do,
it's good to have a filmed record of the event.... which equates
completely with my above comment. In fact, we in the community encourage
filming of events for just this purpose. The photographers that take
these pictures however, don't push them on the net as you are doing, as
entertainment, with no news value or safety connection associated with
that effort.
Next!

Well Dudley,

In that case you could have simply written: "I hate it when people spread
aviation crash videos for other purpose than aviation safety issues". It
would have saved you a lot of unnecessary discussion.

As you will have understood, I see things a little differently. Having
witnessed a major aircraft crash in which 70 people got killed because a
demonstration pilot misjudged the situation, I use it for other purposes.

I hope more people are willing to share their crash video footage with me,
and I will continue to share it with other people via my website.
Furthermore I will keep announcing the video wepage at the newsgroups where
people might have an extra interest in viewing my videos. That would best
serve my personal purpose.

People can download the videos at http://www.dappa.nl-crash.htm and use it
for safety issues, viewing pleasure, collecting purposes or whatever other
goal they have. I won't judge them for the reason they look at it.

Iwan



"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
All right, I'll put it to you as straight forward as possible:

How can you be a demonstration pilot and object to people shooting and
shearing photos and videos of your actions, even if these include
ultimate
****-ups resulting in many casualties ?

I'm very curious about your reply !

Iwan

In the demonstration community we have no objection whatsoever to crash
video being used for the purpose of crash investigation or news
reporting. These things relate directly to the issues of flight safety.
Where on earth did you get the idea we objected to video being used in
this manner...surely not from me. I've stated this quite clearly in
prior posts.
As for the "****ups"; yes, they happen unfortunately, and when they do,
it's good to have a filmed record of the event.... which equates
completely with my above comment. In fact, we in the community encourage
filming of events for just this purpose. The photographers that take
these pictures however, don't push them on the net as you are doing, as
entertainment, with no news value or safety connection associated with
that effort.
Next!

Iwan Bogels wrote:

People can download the videos at

LOL! Dead link...

--
Peter

Well, not 20 seconds ago.....presh "refresh" , because you might have the
old link in your cash....

:-)

Iwan




"Peter R." schreef in bericht
...
Iwan Bogels wrote:

People can download the videos at

LOL! Dead link...

--
Peter

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Well, not 20 seconds ago.....presh "refresh" , because you might have the
old link in your cash....

:-)

Iwan


Dead link for me too.

Keith




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"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
http://www.dappa.nl-crash.htm

/

Paul

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Well Dudley,

In that case you could have simply written: "I hate it when people
spread
aviation crash videos for other purpose than aviation safety issues".
It
would have saved you a lot of unnecessary discussion.

I don't believe you quite understand what's been happening here.
I have absolutely no problem at all with people downloading to their
heart's content from your site and viewing all the crash footage they
can cram onto their computers. I merely saw what you are doing and
posted a simple one line statement that expressed my personal feelings
for both you and what you do. To reiterate, that statement was "I detest
people like you". Everything that has transpired since then is simply
the usual result on Usenet of people reading a comment like that and one
by one,
checking in with totally irrelevant comment. I say irrelevant because
what they have to say is related to THEM, not to me. I took the trouble
to engage the posters I wished to engage dealing with the reasons I had
personally for "detesting you". This wasn't done to change anything, or
even change anyone's opinions; simply to expand for clarity on MY
feelings for what you do.
I'm a slightly different poster than the usual you will find on Usenet
because when I post, I'm not looking for agreement. Agreement isn't
important to me when it comes to Usenet. I post what pleases me. If
someone gains from what I say, that's fine. If they hate my guts and
want me dead, that's fine too. Couldn't care less either way.
So you see, all this fuss about crash video being good or bad is of no
consequence to me personally at all. I could care less who watches crash
videos and who photographs it and why.
By all means, push your video and enjoy your hobby.
It's quite humorous to me that this thread demonstrates in exact clarity
the total reality of Usenet.
You posted for your site......I posted that I detest people like you
(note that this statement doesn't even address the "why" question or the
video question)......then come the masses to opine with their own
"opinions" on the matter, none of which by definition can address why I
detest you, which is really funny to me........finally here we are
again, after all this expended bandwidth, right back at the beginning.
You have your site. They have their opinions. I still detest you.
Nothing solved.
Welcome to Usenet! :-)



As you will have understood, I see things a little differently. Having
witnessed a major aircraft crash in which 70 people got killed because
a
demonstration pilot misjudged the situation, I use it for other
purposes.

Bull****! You make no mention anywhere on your site of being even
remotely interested in the safety issues involved with our work but as
I've said, I'm not trying to change what you do. I simply detest what
you do.

I hope more people are willing to share their crash video footage with
me,
and I will continue to share it with other people via my website.
Furthermore I will keep announcing the video wepage at the newsgroups
where
people might have an extra interest in viewing my videos. That would
best
serve my personal purpose.

I'm sure you will, as I'm sure there will be no end of people who will
make your efforts worthwhile. No problem with me at all Iwan. Go for it.

People can download the videos at http://www.dappa.nl-crash.htm and
use it
for safety issues,

I'm sorry, but just the video alone without a corresponding report does
little to serve the safety issue. To serve the safety issue, video must
be viewed in an investigative context by people who know how to evaluate
that video. Putting crash video on the net for viewing by the general
public with no expert comment directed at the safety issues involved
with the crash does little but allow an uneducated replay of the crash.
If you are indeed interested in flight safety, I would expect that the
video from every crash you have ever shot had been turned over to crash
investigation immediately after the crash, or at least a copy made and
distributed immediately to proper investigative authority.
When you can show me that this has been done by you, I'll consider not
"detesting" you all that much. Until that point, you don't fit any
description of a photographer interested in flight safety at all. You're
just one more web site junkie pushing your wares to enhance your own
image as a photographer.

viewing pleasure, collecting purposes or whatever other
goal they have. I won't judge them for the reason they look at it.


I'm sure you won't, and I won't either. What people do is their own
business, even you Iwan. I just happen to detest you that's all; no big
deal....never was!! :-)
If this thread had any purpose at all, it has served to enlighten a few
to how we in the airshow community view the issue of crash video. For
some, that will have been interesting. For the rest, who cares. Surely
not me. I learned a long time ago that the way to change the world was
DEFINITELY not on Usenet!

Enjoy!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

I'm sorry, but just the video alone without a corresponding report does
little to serve the safety issue. To serve the safety issue, video must
be viewed in an investigative context by people who know how to evaluate
that video.

This is an excellent point, Dudley, and I would like to propose an idea that
could help all pilots, AND improve the utility of my website.

As I'm sure you are aware, I, too, have an aviation video page on our
hotel's website. (See it at
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm ) It is chock-full of
fascinating aviation videos, some that are just plain cool, some that show
landing in Iowa City for potential guests -- and others that depict terrible
crash footage.

In some cases I have included commentary from people who were actually
involved in the situations depicted. (The B-52 crash, for example.) With
most, however, I have no way to identify the people and pilots involved,
since most of the videos have been sent to me by fellow pilots from all over
the world.

You are an aviation expert with a unique expertise in aviation safety. You
are also obviously incensed at the notion of aviation crash videos being
viewed outside of the aviation safety context. As I've read your posts,
I've come around to see that there is much truth in your convictions.

I, on the other hand, am interested in maintaining (and expanding) a very
popular page on our website, not because it nets me any money (it does not)
but because I personally find these videos to be fascinating.

Perhaps we can meld the two together?

How would you like to provide a short commentary on each crash video, for
inclusion on our website? Perhaps a paragraph or two, with your expert
opinion on what happened, how the incident could have been prevented, what
steps have been taken since the accident to prevent a recurrence, etc., etc.

Really, you would have carte blanche to write whatever you felt was
appropriate, as a service to your fellow (and future) pilots.

What do you say? Want to help fix the problem?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"