Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:55 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.


Yes, agreed, but you can say the same about the G103 Twin Acro II, which
is at least as difficult to spin. We used to have one (replaced by a
Perkoz) that I once did annual spin checks in with, AFAIK, the only
instructor we had who knwe how to spin it - and even he could only spin
it left. Thats because the G.103 is chronically under-ruddered and the
rudder hinge attaches it to the left fin skin. Consequently it has
slightly more left than right rudder.

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_6_]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:55 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.


Yes, agreed, but you can say the same about the G103 Twin Acro II, which
is at least as difficult to spin. We used to have one (replaced by a
Perkoz) that I once did annual spin checks in with, AFAIK, the only
instructor we had who knwe how to spin it - and even he could only spin
it left. Thats because the G.103 is chronically under-ruddered and the
rudder hinge attaches it to the left fin skin. Consequently it has
slightly more left than right rudder.

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The spinning flight test report Martin refers to can be found here. The testing was carried out by the Airforce Flight Test Center at Edwards Airforce Base

https://ia800105.us.archive.org/14/i..._ADA213513.pdf

It makes for an interesting if lengthy read.

Cheers
Colin

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21, unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.

Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
appalling statistic.

I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_6_]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.

Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
appalling statistic.

I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Hi Martin

The original FM was updated in 1991 to reflect the new information from the Edwards spinning flight test evaluation

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/...TM23_US_HB.pdf

:-) Colin

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.


Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

On Monday, 27 April 2020 05:03:30 UTC+3, Steve Bralla wrote:
You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.


Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

I certainly know that rudder can fall off during ground roll.

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 1:41:56 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 27 April 2020 05:03:30 UTC+3, Steve Bralla wrote:
You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.


Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

I certainly know that rudder can fall off during ground roll.

Must make it harder to recover from a spin, eh?