The end of the Naval Air Reserves???

On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.


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"vzlion" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight. The biggest reason for these
decoms
is to distribute their aircraft to the active duty squadrons. We are barely
holding
our own on the attrition/procurement battle. Getting these assets from the
reserves
will help keep the VP community alive until MMA is online (crossed fingers).
I'm
sure the other communities are in pretty dire straits as well. I hope that
many
of these squadrons will return when their active duty brethren have the
airframes
they need. What this should really drive home to all is the danger of using
the Pentagon to balance the Nation's budget. You may save in the near term,
but at what cost later?

Giz

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:

"vzlion" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.



--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Giz" wrote:

"vzlion" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jul 2003 18:12:34 -0700, (John Larson)
wrote:

It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.



--Mike

Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect. I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or know
any
who are. I know that they are out there, but they would be on foodstamps in
the civilian world as well. I hope better things for their future, but
first I want
the best equipment in the world to do my job. Would you want to show up
with the second best system? The Dems never talk about these issues, since
ultimately it means that some defense contractor (not my favorite people
either)
is going to make a profit. We should streamline our procurement system
some,
but what we shouldn't do is stop buying. Just the thoughts of a Naval
Aircrewman
in a platform facing some Clinton era budget issues.

Giz

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.



Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.


These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,


Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,



the civilian world as well. I hope better things for their future, but
first I want
the best equipment in the world to do my job.
Would you want to show up
with the second best system? The Dems never talk about these issues, since
ultimately it means that some defense contractor (not my favorite people
either)
is going to make a profit.

Yes, and while active duty (bless their souls) eke on by....the civilian
fat cat defense industry makes a killing so that their CEO friends of
our politicians can send their kids, who would never stoop to the level
of taking arms for their country, to the best private schools where they
can booze up womanize up, graduate, and get some position of power where
they can, in the future, send somebody else's lower middle class and
lower classs kids to do the fighting and dying. They'll say nice things
about these kids while they're doing it...but will turn around and slash
their benefits at the blink of an eye.



We should streamline our procurement system
some,
but what we shouldn't do is stop buying. Just the thoughts of a Naval
Aircrewman
in a platform facing some Clinton era budget issues.


Well this former Naval Aircrewman is facing up to both Bush's budget
issues....like the increasing of Voc Rehab disabled vet entitlement from
10% to 20% for eligibility and much much more.



--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It
was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS
Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling
our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching
a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah
rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those
do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his
the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even
shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to
deny
that.



Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more
interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.


These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or
know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,


Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,


You brought the veteran's issues into a thread that was discussing the
current and future state of Navy Air. Not exactly a "veteran's issue".
Thank you for your service and have a happy 4th, but if you can't
accept that this thread will follow along on the issues it is concerned
with, then find somewhere else to grind your axe or start a new thread.

Giz

In article ,
"Giz" wrote:


It will be a sad day when the all these squadrons are gone. It
was
fun
while it lasted. John Larson LCDR(Ret) VP-90 1984-1994, NAS
Glenview
IL.


Big surprise. I thought Clinton was bad, Bush is even worse. He
already cut Veterans Benefits by millions of dollars while telling
our
troops what a good job they are doing. Talk about 2-faced. At ther
rate he's going I won't be surprised
I've been a republican all my life, but I have to look at this
adminustration and ask "What has he done for the country?"

Walt
CPO, UNS, Ret.

He can't fix 8 years of abuse overnight.


How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching
a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets. He talks the armchair "Rah
rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those
do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his
the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even
shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to
deny
that.



Whatever, believe it or not there are issues that we are more
interested in
than
on base housing, larger pay raises, ect.


These are active duty issues; not veterans ones.


Veterans are more interested in keeping benfits or benefit eligibility
for something like a service-connected disability (maybe taking a bullet
or their country or permanent disability from any number of combatant or
peacetime functions).


I'd like parts to keep my bird in
the air
and FMC. The issues you speak of don't mean **** if we don't come back.
I'm
certainly not overpaid, but at the same time I'm not on foodstamps or
know
any
who are. I know that they are out there,


Great, but we're talking about veterans here. Do you undertand the
difference between active duty and veteran? Veterans have already done
there time. It is they who Bush Jr., like his pappy before him, are
slashing benefits for,


You brought the veteran's issues into a thread that was discussing the
current and future state of Navy Air. Not exactly a "veteran's issue".
Thank you for your service and have a happy 4th, but if you can't
accept that this thread will follow along on the issues it is concerned
with, then find somewhere else to grind your axe or start a new thread.


False, Walt brought veterans issues into the thread and I responded to
that. Thank you for your service as well, but if you're reading
comprehension skills are that off, perhaps you should avoid
participating in any thread.


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message

How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets.

The "gutting" of the Naval Reserve goes all the way back to the Carter
years. I don't recall him as a friend of vets, either.

On the other hand the idea that two years as a draftee entitles you to a
lifetime of benefits is a bit much, too. I know a BUNCH of people who exist
on military disabilities with VERY questionable bases.

I did my time (10 years Active, 14 Reserve), got paid for what I did
(mostly), and will get a check every month beginning in April of 2006.
Since I live in an area where the closest thing we have to a "military
installation" is an ANG Base I won't get to use a lot of the "benefits" to
which I am entitled. I blame neither Republican nor Democrat for that; my
choice of residence is my choice.

My wife also gets her check, after 5 Active and 19 Reserve.

He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

So, what else is new?!?!?!?!?! ;-)

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.

I guess you are going to vote Libertarian next time out. Right?

Soldiers (and the rest) have been pawns since the beginning of the reality
of the "rich man's war and the poor man's fight." And that goes almost back
to the time of Og and Mog.

More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is
unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations"
but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types in
head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal
presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware
units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the
curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.)

The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late, unlamented
Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose a
bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same
way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern
aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter
Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means that
you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis.
The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so
will a cheap solution to an expensive problem.

Bill Kambic

Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93 (ditto),
NAF Detroit, 1974-1978

"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
"Michael Wise" wrote in message

How does slashing veterans benefits come anything close to approaching a
fix for what you call "8 years of abuse"? Face it, Bush Jr., like his
pappy, doesn't give two ****s about vets.

The "gutting" of the Naval Reserve goes all the way back to the Carter
years. I don't recall him as a friend of vets, either.

On the other hand the idea that two years as a draftee entitles you to a
lifetime of benefits is a bit much, too. I know a BUNCH of people who
exist
on military disabilities with VERY questionable bases.

I did my time (10 years Active, 14 Reserve), got paid for what I did
(mostly), and will get a check every month beginning in April of 2006.
Since I live in an area where the closest thing we have to a "military
installation" is an ANG Base I won't get to use a lot of the "benefits" to
which I am entitled. I blame neither Republican nor Democrat for that; my
choice of residence is my choice.

My wife also gets her check, after 5 Active and 19 Reserve.

He talks the armchair "Rah rah
military" talk from the safety and comfort of somebody from a family
wealthy and connected enough to ensure never being sent in harms
way...but at the end of the day, he's like the rest of those do-nothing
privileged stooges at the top and given the choice of protecting his the
already obscene profits of his lackey friends and contributors or
funding programs to benefit those who served their country and even shed
blood for it...will always side with his cronies.

So, what else is new?!?!?!?!?! ;-)

Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference...servicemen are just
their pawns....although Republicans are pretty good about lying to deny
that.

I guess you are going to vote Libertarian next time out. Right?

Soldiers (and the rest) have been pawns since the beginning of the reality
of the "rich man's war and the poor man's fight." And that goes almost
back
to the time of Og and Mog.

More to the point, loss of an internal Reserve hardware capability is
unlikely to EVER return. The RESFORONS have always been "poor relations"
but made do with what they had and sometimes embarassed Active Duty types
in
head to head competition. The Active Duty types have, in my personal
presence, often noted the vast "wastage" of funds on the Reserve hardware
units. (To be completely fair, a fair number have also "looked behind the
curtain" and seen the reasons why hardware units are a Very Good Thing.)

The likelyhood of facing the hords of the Red Army (or the late,
unlamented
Soviet Navy) is very small. But there are still places where you can lose
a
bunch of aircraft and people in a hurry and have to replace them the same
way (a "dust up" in North Korea comes to mind). The complexity of modern
aircraft means that the "WWII Approach" of 90 day wonder to Fleet Fighter
Pilot in a year (or so) is unlikely to EVER be seen again. This means
that
you have to have a "well" of trained people to draw on in time of crisis.
The REFORON/SRU hardware units filled that need. When they "go away" so
will a cheap solution to an expensive problem.

Bill Kambic

Formerly of VS-73 (the SRU part whose numbers escape me) and VP-93
(ditto),
NAF Detroit, 1974-1978

Hey Bill, are you an A-dub? I'm one of the active duty types that has seen
behind
the curtain. I left active duty after my first 4 and joined the reserves
(SAU VP0545),
but came back to active duty after 4.5 there. I don't view the reserves as
wasteful,
but I do view them as somewhat of a luxury. We shouldn't have reserve
squadrons
instead of active squadrons. A choice that the VP community would be facing
in the
near future if we didn't make use of the aircraft in the reserve units. I
do believe that
the SAU concept will be making a return to the Naval Air Reserve, and
hopefully we
can reform some of the units when MMA is online.

Giz

"Giz" wrote in message

snipped for brevity

Hey Bill, are you an A-dub?

Ayup!g

I'm one of the active duty types that has seen
behind
the curtain. I left active duty after my first 4 and joined the reserves
(SAU VP0545),
but came back to active duty after 4.5 there. I don't view the reserves
as
wasteful,
but I do view them as somewhat of a luxury. We shouldn't have reserve
squadrons
instead of active squadrons.

Well, maybe so and maybe not. A lot depends on your definition of "luxury"
and and missions that need to be accomplished.

One of the hardest lessons of WWII was that the virtual elimination of ASW
assets in the RN and USN after WWI damn near caused a catastrophe. If the
Japanese had followed German practice with their subs it probably would
have. Again, the WWII analogy is not directly on point as no potential
adversary CURRENTLY possesses a significant subsurface threat. There are
lots of subs out there in the hands of possible "bad guys" but so far they
have not choosen to use them. If they do then long range maritime patrol
may not be of too much help and the S3 series might be sorely missed.

A choice that the VP community would be facing
in the
near future if we didn't make use of the aircraft in the reserve units. I
do believe that
the SAU concept will be making a return to the Naval Air Reserve, and
hopefully we
can reform some of the units when MMA is online.

I doubt that budget pressures in the future will be less than they are now.
The idea that we will buy enough MMA airframes to outfit non-existant
RESFORON/SAUs smacks of a GREAT DEAL of optomism!g

And that still does not address the other hardware units. If the air assets
go how long before the FFGs follow?

It seems to me that if the Reserve Forces are to survive being anything but
"knife and fork" units spending their time watching "Victory at Sea" reruns
then they had better look to their "hole card" and crack up some
Congressional support for at least maintenace of the status quo.

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.