USA automated panel-cutting service?

On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel
cutting (from CAD)? Or maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider
panel overall size, flat surface with uniform depth flange.
Thanks!

Geeze guys, CAD does not mean Carbon-pointed-pencil Aided Design.
Yes, I do have 3D CAD model to ensure no interferences...

Thanks Hank and JFitch for reminding me to try Rex, who sent the
reply below. Large-bed CNC router might make nicest result.


Dave,

Water jet has a delamination problem with wet layed up fiber glass
structures like the Shempp panels. (so I am told. I have no direct
experience.)

The laser does a nice job but it burns the material and leaves a charred
edge. This is fixed with a bit of touch up sanding. The thick Shempp
panels require 2-3 passes of the laser so the there is a bit of finish
work after the cut.

CNC mill does a nice job but my table does not have enough travel to cut
a panel with out repositioning the work.

Let me know if I can help.
Rex

Dave Nadler wrote on 1/30/2021 12:36 PM:
On 1/26/2021 8:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
Anybody able to recommend a USA company that can do automated panel cutting (from CAD)? Or
maybe in Canada? Fiberglass panel, typical glider panel overall size, flat surface with
uniform depth flange.
Thanks!

Geeze guys, CAD does not mean Carbon-pointed-pencil Aided Design.
Yes, I do have 3D CAD model to ensure no interferences...

Thanks Hank and JFitch for reminding me to try Rex, who sent the
reply below. Large-bed CNC router might make nicest result.


Dave,

Water jet has a delamination problem with wet layed up fiber glass structures like the Shempp
panels. (so I am told.* I have no direct experience.)

The laser does a nice job but it burns the material and leaves a charred edge. This is fixed
with a bit of touch up sanding. The thick Shempp panels require 2-3 passes of the laser so the
there is a bit of finish work after the cut.

CNC mill does a nice job but my table does not have enough travel to cut a panel with out
repositioning the work.

Let me know if I can help.
Rex
Ooo! Ooo! I know: have it 3D printed! That would give it a modern look.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

Dave Nadler wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?


I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
happy.

Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
newsreader app.

Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
is satisfied.

Britton

Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.

I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.

What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.

This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
happy.

Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
newsreader app.

Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
is satisfied.

Britton

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:31:52 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
Waterjet will work fine, but will create blisters of delam local to the pierce location. What this means is you pierce in the middle of your 57mm hole and then spiral out to the contour. The problem is piercing the holes for the screws won't work (or risks damage) as the blisters will often be bigger than the hole. You can hand drill them later but they will be all over the place because they are hand drilled.

I cut mine on my CNC mill, took about 10 minutes (after all the design and setup). If you strike out elsewhere, I might be talked into it under the right conditions. The issue on a CNC mill is you have to figure out how to hold it, and where the CL is - at least on the panels I've seen they are not very symmetric (and won't match the drawing) so it's hard to guess.

What I did to fixture it is make a plywood plug the would sit up in the flange of the panel and hold it off the table. Then drilled holes in the middle of all the cutouts and screwed it to the plywood through those holes. Then ran the program to cut all the shapes and holes. Part way through you have a bunch of additional holes to screw down through.

This is the advantage of waterjet or laser - they are essentially no-force machining so fixturing is easy. On a CNC mill or router, you need to nail that sucker down.
On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 4:14:36 PM UTC-8, Anonymous wrote:
Dave Nadler wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton

Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

I believe I used what they offered at the time. They possibly have more
options now. But agreed in the thought. My panel came out nice so I’m
happy.

Aside: interesting that I show up as ‘anonymous’ while replying through
this NewsTap iPhone app. Will look into it. Other than that I like the
newsreader app.

Back to the real conversation now, whatever gets the job done and end user
is satisfied.

Britton

If you are an EAA member you can download a free version of Solidworks (if not, it is worth joining because SW is about $5k). You can create a 3D version of your panel. If you want to check interferences you can either create 3D models of the avionics or download these models from sites such as:
https://grabcad.com/library?software... tags=avionics
You can create an assembly using these models (you will create the model of your panel).
From this you can create output files that all CNC shops recognize.

Solidworks does have a steep learning curve, but it is worth it. There are numerous online training videos that help a lot. Once proficient at it you can create virtually any kind of part you can think of, either machined out of solid material or made by 3D rendering machines.

Tom

I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.

I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.

Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.

Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.

It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.

In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.

It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.

Hope that helps.

Andy Blackburn
9B


On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing.. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton
Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD.. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.

I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.

Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.

Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.

It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up.. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.

In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.

It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.

Hope that helps.

Andy Blackburn
9B
On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton
Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"...

On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 6:14:26 PM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 8:03:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I did my -27 panel in AutoCAD 2D - this was before I taught myself 3D CAD. I measured all the instruments and modeled the size of the enclosures in addition screw holes, faces, etc. Fortunately I didn't have any depth-related issues, but on other gliders you need to know where stuff behind the panel is so that requires 3D as Matt describes.

I used a laser cutter to make acrylic models of the panel - maybe half a dozen with various tweaks. I mounted the instruments double check clearances and wedged the whole thing into the cockpit to make sure I could see and reach things - twiddle knobs without interference from adjacent knobs, etc.

Then I laser cut several 1/8" and 1/4" acrylic templates - one thin one with just the instrument bolt holes and a center drill hole in the middle of each instrument face - to start the router bit - and then two templates with the the mount holes plus the instrument holes. This also included 1/16" holes at the corners of any instrument holes that had angled openings (USB plugs [tricky!], circuit breakers, etc. - anything with a radius smaller than the 3/16" template router bit ( https://www.amazon.com/Amana-Tool-Mi.../dp/B010C7W38W ). I started with just the screw hole template and hand marked and drilled maybe four holes so I could bolt the screw hole template to the panel blank and drill the rest of the instrument bolt holes without any drift. I used a drill press for this because it's easy to chew up the acrylic if you do it handheld.

Once that was done I bolted the double templates with the holes for the instrument faces on the front and back of the the panel blank to sandwich it flat and give me a guide. I mounted the 3/16 router bit which has an end bearing to follow the template in a router ( https://tinyurl.com/y5l3shz8 ) I got from home depot that could be mounted with the bit pointing up on a router table ( https://tinyurl.com/y5addzct ). I set the bit depth so that the bearing lined up with the thicker template on the inside of the panel blank. This way the panel face-side template can on the router table and you can see the bit following along the template (note that the bolts that hold the face-side template need to be counter-sunk in the acrylic or it won't be flat to slide on the router table.

It takes a bit of care to cut all the instrument holes without messing up. I practiced a couple of times on flat 1/16" fiberglass sheet. A key thing to watch out for is if the tiny template bearing seizes. If this happens it will start spinning and will melt the acrylic template at which point you are going to ruin the panel. I always started with a fresh bit and took pauses to see if it was starting to bind. You could probably use a bigger bit to have less probability of failure, but some holes have tight radii so choose your bits wisely. I cut the instruments holes with only a thousandth or two of tolerance for the instruments. If you do this you better be sure to measure the instruments exactly. I ended up having to sand a few openings an extra thousandth or so to get the instrument in.

In the end it worked great, though it was a lot of work. If Rex tells you it was a high-quality job that's a compliment. This was before Rex had his laser. If I had to do it again I'd consider just having the folks at Williams do it.

It's not the sort of thing that you can easily get done commercially because of all the fiddling and the thinness of the panel. Getting access to a laser cutter also can be tricky. I ultimately bought my own, but they are pricy so you'd really need to have another reason to own one.

Hope that helps.

Andy Blackburn
9B
On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 3:50:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On 1/30/2021 5:39 PM, Anonymous wrote:
In the past I’ve used ponoko to laser cut an aluminum template from my cad
model. It’s really a SVG file they need for closed path tracing. They’re
reasonably priced since you do all the hard work ahead of time. They just
cut material and ship to you.

Once received just a matter of mounting to your panel and then cutting with
your favorite fine cutter.

Britton
Interesting. If you're going to go the template route, why wouldn't you
use a thicker material (acrylic?) to make using a router easier?
Minor as NOT a machinist...there are conversations of "climbmilling" vs "conviential milling"...

Found this about water jet cutting carbon fiber
https://www.elevatedmaterials.com/cu...th-a-waterjet/