President Bush is doing well.

Bill- The
people who are here unlawfully are generally doing work citizens won't do
(like hard physical labor in the landscape industry or demeaning jobs like
bussing tables and doing dishes elsewhere or stooped over in fields picking
stuff for your table). Should we round 'em all up and have an "illegal
alien drive"? BRBR

Yes, the operative word here is 'illegal'. What other laws are ok to break? If
the gent is doing a service for the city, county, etc, it's ok for them to
break the law??


Bill If we do that who's gonna cut your grass or clean up after at
at Applebees or fill your larder with produce and mushrooms? BRBR

The problem isn't citizens not wanting to do the work, it is employers who hire
these people breaking the law to save $, savings that are not passed on to you.
Plus the corrupt country that the individual chooses to leave(read-Mexico).

Our borders are a walk in the country to anybody that wants to come here. Money
should be allocated to protect our borders, period. Applebees will find
somebody to bus tables, believe me.

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"Pechs1" wrote in message

Bill- The
people who are here unlawfully are generally doing work citizens won't do
(like hard physical labor in the landscape industry or demeaning jobs like
bussing tables and doing dishes elsewhere or stooped over in fields
picking
stuff for your table). Should we round 'em all up and have an "illegal
alien drive"? BRBR

Yes, the operative word here is 'illegal'. What other laws are ok to
break? If
the gent is doing a service for the city, county, etc, it's ok for them to
break the law??

No, not at all. Yet there are about 10-12 million of them. Or, as Lenin
once put it, "Quantity is a quality of its own."g

The only reason they are "illegal" is because a statute or regulation makes
them so. Crossing an artificial line is not a crime "malum in se." IMO
most of the these statutes and regulations are nothing more than an
expression of hostility towards little, brown men who don't speak English.
If our southern neighbor were Sweden or Germany and the illegals all looked
like Anita Ekberg or Ursula Andress (or maybe Rutger Hauer) then I don't
think we would be having this discussion. A brief walk through U.S.
immigration law (including its roots in the hostility towards such "inferior
races" as Irishmen, Dutchmen, etc.) might give you different perspective.

If figure anybody who wants to work should get a big, "COME ON DOWN!"

Bill If we do that who's gonna cut your grass or clean up after at
at Applebees or fill your larder with produce and mushrooms? BRBR

The problem isn't citizens not wanting to do the work, it is employers who
hire
these people breaking the law to save $, savings that are not passed on to
you.

Well, no.

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr. cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).

My friends in the industries noted tell me the similar stories.

Plus the corrupt country that the individual chooses to
leave(read-Mexico).

Indeed.

Our borders are a walk in the country to anybody that wants to come here.
Money
should be allocated to protect our borders, period. Applebees will find
somebody to bus tables, believe me.

I agree on a system of regularization. The idea that you can slam the door
shut and nail it tight is fantasy.

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

In article , "Bill Kambic"
wrote:


The only reason they are "illegal" is because a statute or regulation makes
them so.

The only reason murder is illegal because some silly statute or
regulation makes it so.


Crossing an artificial line is not a crime "malum in se."

When that artficial line happens to be a sovereign nation's border and
you lack legal standing to do so...it is a crime.



Bill If we do that who's gonna cut your grass or clean up after at
at Applebees or fill your larder with produce and mushrooms? BRBR

The problem isn't citizens not wanting to do the work, it is employers who
hire
these people breaking the law to save $, savings that are not passed on to
you.

Well, no.

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr. cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).


Great, so he illegally comes on down with his wife and children to work
your plantation for a periodic $50/day. In the meantime, where does the
money to pay for his and his family's health care come from? Where does
the money to school his children come from?



Are you willing to assume the real costs of health care, education, law
enforcement, etc. spent on these workers? Or are you just content to get
cheap illegal labor and let the tax-payers foot the bill for all the
city, county, and state services these people use?

Not a bad gig you got going: get the benefits of cheap labor while
making society as a whole pay the real costs.


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message

The only reason they are "illegal" is because a statute or regulation
makes
them so.

The only reason murder is illegal because some silly statute or
regulation makes it so.

No, Sir.

Murder is a crime "malum in se" (wrong in itself) in every culture I am
aware of. So is stealing and lying.

Crossing an artificial line is not a crime "malum in se."

When that artficial line happens to be a sovereign nation's border and
you lack legal standing to do so...it is a crime.

I agree it's a crime; but it's a crime "malum prohibitum" (wrong because
it's forbidden) not an act that is wrong in and of itself.

Bill If we do that who's gonna cut your grass or clean up after at
at Applebees or fill your larder with produce and mushrooms?
BRBR

The problem isn't citizens not wanting to do the work, it is employers
who
hire
these people breaking the law to save $, savings that are not passed
on to
you.

Well, no.

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr.
cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and
hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to
do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).


Great, so he illegally comes on down with his wife and children to work
your plantation for a periodic $50/day. In the meantime, where does the
money to pay for his and his family's health care come from? Where does
the money to school his children come from?

He does not have any of these benefits in TN.

e you willing to assume the real costs of health care, education, law
enforcement, etc. spent on these workers? Or are you just content to get
cheap illegal labor and let the tax-payers foot the bill for all the
city, county, and state services these people use?

Not a bad gig you got going: get the benefits of cheap labor while
making society as a whole pay the real costs.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm pointing out an economic reality that those
who specialize in hatred of those not like them don't ever care to
acknowledge.

Note, also, that I never said I hired any of these guys, only that I could
if I wished.

The answer is not 10 divisions on the southern border, but a system that
recognizes reality and does not pander to the prejudices of those who hate
anybody not like themselves.

Bill Kambic

If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

In article , "Bill Kambic"
wrote:


The only reason they are "illegal" is because a statute or regulation
makes
them so.

The only reason murder is illegal because some silly statute or
regulation makes it so.

No, Sir.

Murder is a crime "malum in se" (wrong in itself) in every culture I am
aware of. So is stealing and lying.

Crossing an artificial line is not a crime "malum in se."

When that artficial line happens to be a sovereign nation's border and
you lack legal standing to do so...it is a crime.

I agree it's a crime; but it's a crime "malum prohibitum" (wrong because
it's forbidden) not an act that is wrong in and of itself.


So you're saying its OK for you disregard or flout any law you
like....provided the law is "malum prohibitum"?



Bill If we do that who's gonna cut your grass or clean up after at
at Applebees or fill your larder with produce and mushrooms?
BRBR

The problem isn't citizens not wanting to do the work, it is employers
who
hire
these people breaking the law to save $, savings that are not passed
on to
you.

Well, no.

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr.
cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and
hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to
do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).


Great, so he illegally comes on down with his wife and children to work
your plantation for a periodic $50/day. In the meantime, where does the
money to pay for his and his family's health care come from? Where does
the money to school his children come from?

He does not have any of these benefits in TN.


BS. What happens when he or any one of his family members get sick,
pregnant or injured? Are you saying hospital emergency rooms turn them
away? If not, who pays??

What do his school-age kids do during the day? They go to school. Who
pays for that?

When an illegal alien is involved in a crime (whether it be as a victim
or a perpetrator), who pays for the law enforcement costs? The
prosecution costs? The incarceration costs?

It's great you can find people to work their asses off on your
plantation for $50/day...but all you're doing is personally profitting
from illegal labor....while letting your neighbors pay the real cost of
that cheap illegal labor.



e you willing to assume the real costs of health care, education, law
enforcement, etc. spent on these workers? Or are you just content to get
cheap illegal labor and let the tax-payers foot the bill for all the
city, county, and state services these people use?

Not a bad gig you got going: get the benefits of cheap labor while
making society as a whole pay the real costs.

I'm not saying it's right,


I see. At least you have the balls to admit what you're doing is wrong
that you are perfectly content to make your neighbors pay the real costs
of your cheap labor.


I'm pointing out an economic reality that those
who specialize in hatred of those not like them don't ever care to
acknowledge.


You're the only person mentioning hatred of anybody here. Obviously
you're well-versed in defending your wrong (by your own admission) and
illegal ways by trying to make it an argument about race.


Note, also, that I never said I hired any of these guys, only that I could
if I wished

You said:

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr. cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).


How can you possibly know you can get illegal labor for $50/day if you
hadn't in fact done so? How can you possibly know those "sons of
bitches" will works their asses of for that $50 if you hadn't hired
those "sons of bitches"?


The answer is not 10 divisions on the southern border, but a system that
recognizes reality and does not pander to the prejudices of those who hate
anybody not like themselves.


I'm sure that dog-eared race card of yours sits in your shirt pocket for
quick use as a red herring tool for you, but you're the only person here
talking about hate.



--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message

So you're saying its OK for you disregard or flout any law you
like....provided the law is "malum prohibitum"?

Maybe. Rosa Parks was committing a crime when she refused to move to the
back of the bus. Most of our Founders were not only felons but traitors in
1775. Kinds of depends on the circumstances.

I'm not saying it's right,

I see. At least you have the balls to admit what you're doing is wrong
that you are perfectly content to make your neighbors pay the real costs
of your cheap labor.

I said I never hired them; only that I knew where to do so. I also can take
you to most of the active drug locations in the county. If you want a hit
man I can probably point you in that direction, too. Not that I would, only
that I could.

Since I work as a part time prosecutor in our local DA's office I try to
conform my personal behavior to the standard of Ceasar's Wife. Or, put
another way, I know more than I do.

If you were a Naval Aviator then I would bet that in your career you made
one or more choices to violate some regulation 'cause in your view at the
time it was a Good Thing to do. Indeed, if you ever wore anybody's uniform
at any rank or rate I suspect that you have done the same thing.

I'm pointing out an economic reality that those
who specialize in hatred of those not like them don't ever care to
acknowledge.

You're the only person mentioning hatred of anybody here. Obviously
you're well-versed in defending your wrong (by your own admission) and
illegal ways by trying to make it an argument about race.

I have committed no wrong. I only point out this wrong is determined by the
vagarities of time time and place, not some external code of morality. This
concept clearly escapes you.

Note, also, that I never said I hired any of these guys, only that I
could
if I wished

You said:

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr.
cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and
hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to
do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).

How can you possibly know you can get illegal labor for $50/day if you
hadn't in fact done so?

How do you know what the speed of light is? Did you personally measure it?
Or are you sentient enought to be able to read a book. Or talk to
neighbors? Or watch CNN?

Personal experience is only one form of learning.

How can you possibly know those "sons of
bitches" will works their asses of for that $50 if you hadn't hired
those "sons of bitches"?

See above.

(P.S. Your cross examination technique sux. Quit watching "Law and Order"
and go sit through some trials at your local court house.)

The answer is not 10 divisions on the southern border, but a system that
recognizes reality and does not pander to the prejudices of those who
hate
anybody not like themselves.

I'm sure that dog-eared race card of yours sits in your shirt pocket for
quick use as a red herring tool for you, but you're the only person here
talking about hate.

I know a thing or two about hate, gathered in my years as a Naval Officer,
attorney, and sentient human being. Like the umpire, I calls it like I sees
it.

Bill Kambic

In article , "Bill Kambic"
wrote:

So you're saying its OK for you disregard or flout any law you
like....provided the law is "malum prohibitum"?

Maybe. Rosa Parks was committing a crime when she refused to move to the
back of the bus.

I guess that means you don't intend on answering the question, but
instead will reach into your shirt pocket and once again pull out your
dog-eared race card?

Since you're now claiming to be a part-time prosecuting attorney, can I
also ask you if its common practice that when you ask or are asked a
question on your job...that you ignore it and simply answer with a
question...and an inappropriate one at that?


I'm not saying it's right,

I see. At least you have the balls to admit what you're doing is wrong
that you are perfectly content to make your neighbors pay the real costs
of your cheap labor.

I said I never hired them; only that I knew where to do so.

You said you knew where do do so, exactly what would be the cost, and
that you know how the worker would perform.

I also can take
you to most of the active drug locations in the county. If you want a hit
man I can probably point you in that direction, too. Not that I would, only
that I could.


And you could also tell me what this hit man would charge and how
effective he would be at his trade (work ethic, end result, etc.)?





I'm pointing out an economic reality that those
who specialize in hatred of those not like them don't ever care to
acknowledge.

You're the only person mentioning hatred of anybody here. Obviously
you're well-versed in defending your wrong (by your own admission) and
illegal ways by trying to make it an argument about race.

I have committed no wrong. I only point out this wrong is determined by the
vagarities of time time and place, not some external code of morality.

Are are most laws which govern our as well as societies around the
world. Does that excuse violating them?


Note, also, that I never said I hired any of these guys, only that I
could
if I wished

You said:

Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr.
cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and
hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to
do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision).

How can you possibly know you can get illegal labor for $50/day if you
hadn't in fact done so?

How do you know what the speed of light is?


Because it is well documented by credible scientists and has stood the
test of time with physicists the world over.


Did you personally measure it?

See above.

Or are you sentient enought to be able to read a book. Or talk to
neighbors? Or watch CNN?

Sentient enough to read and pass judgement on empiral scientific
evidence accepted by the entire world. Are you tring to suggest that
your commentary on illegal aliens to work your plantation is backed by
similar evidence? If so, you'll not have any difficulty presenting that
evidence right here and now...right?


Personal experience is only one form of learning.

How can you possibly know those "sons of
bitches" will works their asses of for that $50 if you hadn't hired
those "sons of bitches"?

See above.

See above

(P.S. Your cross examination technique sux. Quit watching "Law and Order"
and go sit through some trials at your local court house.)


I am not an attorney nor is this a court of law...nor have I even heard
of a show called "Law and Order."

And if my questioning "sux" so much, why do you continue to avoid even
answering the questions? You very specifically said that illegal don't
in TN get the services I several times mentioned...yet when I asked you
what they do when they get sick, hurt, have school-aged kids, etc. and
who pays for it...you ignore the question, delete the question from
quoted text, and then have the audacity to attack the questioner.

Is this sort of lack of intellectual integrity a prerequisite for
part-time prosecutors in your corner of the world...or is it something
just specifc to you?




The answer is not 10 divisions on the southern border, but a system that
recognizes reality and does not pander to the prejudices of those who
hate
anybody not like themselves.

I'm sure that dog-eared race card of yours sits in your shirt pocket for
quick use as a red herring tool for you, but you're the only person here
talking about hate.

I know a thing or two about hate,

Again, race and hate have nothing to do with this...despite your
constant desperate efforts to slam your warn-our race card on the table.
How about answering the questions instead of cowardly hiding behind red
herring arguments?



--Mike

Bill- If you were a Naval Aviator then I would bet that in your career you
made
one or more choices to violate some regulation 'cause in your view at the
time it was a Good Thing to do. BRBR

Don't speak for me sir. I see that you weren't really in the USN anyway, but
part of the JAG..Where 'interpretation of the law' is an art form.

bill I only point out this wrong is determined by the
vagarities of time time and place, not some external code of morality. This
concept clearly escapes you. BRBR

The consept that seems to escape you, that being undocumented in the US is
illegal. As a part time prosecutor, what other laws do you choose to ignore
because you don't agree with them?

If somebody was being prosecuted for being undocumented , would you remove
yourself from the case?

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Do you like it when the children of these 'campos' end up in YOUR school
system, not being able to speak english?

To teach them, extraordinary things must be done, that has a HUGE effect on
your legal son's or daugther's education.

Same for a trip to the emergency department, where here in Boulder, about 55%
of those that come there don't speak english and don't intend to pay for these
services. I pay for them, and I don't like it.

Once again, if you don't like the 'law', then work to change it, Don't ignore
it. That is pandering to anybody who is willing to work to save you money, not
some pholosophical arguemant about racism or such.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Bill- No, not at all. Yet there are about 10-12 million of them. Or, as
Lenin
once put it, "Quantity is a quality of its own." BRBR

Sure, but we need to start somewhere. Our orders have become so easy to walk
through, that many 'non-spanish speaking individuals' are coming in. Those use
arab languages as their native tongue.

Bill The only reason they are "illegal" is because a statute or regulation
makes
them so. Crossing an artificial line is not a crime "malum in se." IMO
most of the these statutes and regulations are nothing more than an
expression of hostility towards little, brown men who don't speak English.
BRBR

They are illegal none the less. If you don't like the law, work to change it,
don't ignore it.

As for your racist undertones, that is pure BS.

Bill If our southern neighbor were Sweden or Germany and the illegals all
looked
like Anita Ekberg or Ursula Andress (or maybe Rutger Hauer) then I don't
think we would be having this discussion. BRBR

Try not to put words in my mouth..I dislike Canadians or French or 'put
nationality here' coming into MY country illegally.

If you want to paint this discussion as some sort of profiling statement about
white males, go elsewhere.

Bill- Ever try to hire agricultural labor? I have offered as much as $15/hr.
cash
and had no takers for such tasks as bucking hay, weedeating fencelines,
mucking stalls, etc. I can make a quick trip over to Lenoir City and hire a
crew for an 8 hour day at $50/head. And those sons of bitches will work
their butts off for that $50 (where if I hire 'Mericans I will have to do
constant "over the shoulder" supervision). BRBR

Well, do you turn a blind eye for anybody with a warrant out for them, for say
shoplifting? Pretty minor but he is 'busting his ass for you'. I see that you
are part of the problem, don't care about any solution as long as you get your
hay 'bucked'.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer