Tomcats gone by fall of 2006

On 6/16/04 10:12 PM, in article , "Kyle
Boatright" wrote:


"Mike Weeks" wrote in message
...
This might be of some interest. Throw out all those other transition
schedules
we've seen. g

start
DEFENSE DAILY 16 JUN 04

Tomcat Transition To Super Hornet Complete By Fall '06, Admiral Says

By Lorenzo Cortes

The Navy will successfully retire the remainder of its Northrop Grumman
[NOC]
F-14 Tomcat fleet in fall 2006 thanks to an accelerated schedule that also
includes introducing Boeing [BA] F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fighter-bombers
earlier, according to the Atlantic Fleet's air forces chief.


MW

How does the range of the F-18 E/F compare with the F-14 Bombcat, with both
carrying equivalent attack loads? Afghanistan is a good example of why the
Navy needs a dedicated medium range attack aircraft. I imagine the phrase
"Wish we still had a few A-6's" was heard more than once in discussions on
Naval air planning regarding Afghanistan.....


From what I understand the F/A-18E/F has slightly less range than the
Tomcat, but (with ATFLIR and the HMCS) is a much more capable Strike
Fighter... not to mention its much better maintenance numbers and radar.

I doubt the "Wish we still had a few A-6's" phrase was actually uttered any
more than "Wish we still had a few Whales." Except for old Intruder guys,
the plane's nearly forgotten.

--Woody

From what I understand the F/A-18E/F has slightly less range than the
Tomcat, but (with ATFLIR and the HMCS) is a much more capable Strike
Fighter... not to mention its much better maintenance numbers and radar.

Kinda sad, 30 years design progress and we get an airframe that can't exceed
.... or even match ... the Turkey's performance (except at high alfa ... big
whoop!). Wouldn't have been a big deal to retrofit advanced WCS/Radar
capability. Of course the maintainability could not have been solved
without a clean sheet of paper redesign (pretty much what the E/F is
compared to the original Bug anyway).

R / John

John Carrier wrote:
Kinda sad, 30 years design progress and we get an airframe that can't exceed
... or even match ... the Turkey's performance (except at high alfa ... big
whoop!). Wouldn't have been a big deal to retrofit advanced WCS/Radar
capability. Of course the maintainability could not have been solved
without a clean sheet of paper redesign (pretty much what the E/F is
compared to the original Bug anyway).

Yea, the "-ilities" are where a HUGE percentage of the costs accrue with
a weapons system. Huge. Guys who talk with their hands want it all of
course, but as soon as you start calculating dollars-per-kill, you have
to move away from the old airframes. Have to.

In article , John Carrier
wrote:

From what I understand the F/A-18E/F has slightly less range than the
Tomcat, but (with ATFLIR and the HMCS) is a much more capable Strike
Fighter... not to mention its much better maintenance numbers and radar.

Kinda sad, 30 years design progress and we get an airframe that can't exceed
... or even match ... the Turkey's performance (except at high alfa ... big
whoop!). Wouldn't have been a big deal to retrofit advanced WCS/Radar
capability. Of course the maintainability could not have been solved
without a clean sheet of paper redesign (pretty much what the E/F is
compared to the original Bug anyway).

R / John

The D is an incredible airplane the way it is but the "good stuff" like
upgrades to radar and such aren't what's killing it as much as a lack
of spares of the little stuff like valves, relays and widgets. This
lack of spares results in a high cannibalization rate that then results
in an obscene maint man-hour per flight hour ratio. I also understand
that there's some core fatigue issues that can't be overcome by simply
rewinging like the Prowler and Intruder went through (or are going
through with the Prowler) It all comes down to money. Not the best
capability but the best capability for the dollar and a "good enough"
capability to bridge to something better. Not what all of us wearing
gold wings want but fiscal reality.
My DS cruise was with CAG-8. A tremendous airwing of 24 Tomcats, 24
Hornets, 16 A-6's (no KA's) a bunch of S-3's, 5 Prowlers, 5 E-2's and
H-3¹s but I have to admit that for what they're doing now an E/F
airwing seems more effective. Times change. I mourned the loss of the
Intruder (and death of the A-6F) as much as anyone but that facet war
fighting has changed. Fortunately the continued need for brave crews
and dedicated maintenance troops keeps us connected with our past.

Pugs

gaepps- The D is an incredible airplane the way it is but the "good stuff"
like
upgrades to radar and such aren't what's killing it as much as a lack
of spares of the little stuff like valves, relays and widgets. BRBR

Incredible compared to the F-14A, but here in 2004, it is miles behind other
aircraft of the day, both US and 'other'.

Like I have said, it should have been the F-14E, back in the 80's when Reagan
$$ was a flowin'. It languished, became stale. The 'D' is better but a
compromise from day one. When at VX-4, in the late
80's, I saw the 'D' at VX-4, also saw a brief about the F-15E. Embarassing when
you compare the two.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 6/17/04 9:05 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

gaepps- The D is an incredible airplane the way it is but the "good stuff"
like
upgrades to radar and such aren't what's killing it as much as a lack
of spares of the little stuff like valves, relays and widgets. BRBR

Incredible compared to the F-14A, but here in 2004, it is miles behind other
aircraft of the day, both US and 'other'.

Like I have said, it should have been the F-14E, back in the 80's when Reagan
$$ was a flowin'. It languished, became stale. The 'D' is better but a
compromise from day one. When at VX-4, in the late
80's, I saw the 'D' at VX-4, also saw a brief about the F-15E. Embarassing
when
you compare the two.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Not to mention the fact that there wasn't enough money for AMRAAM on the
F-14. That hurt too.

--Woody

Doug- Not to mention the fact that there wasn't enough money for AMRAAM on
the
F-14. That hurt too. BRBR

Concur. Even the USAF F-16 weenies got AMRAAM, along with AIM-7-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Doug- Not to mention the fact that there wasn't enough money for AMRAAM
on
the
F-14. That hurt too. BRBR

Concur. Even the USAF F-16 weenies got AMRAAM, along with AIM-7-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

And the cost for the software val/ver (it was already developed) was a
pittance. Personally, I find the decision to not configure the F-14 for
AMRAAM (could have been done in the late 80's) an example of unpunished
criminal behavior. Based on recent headlines, unpunished criminal behavior
is a fairly common occurrence within the halls of the pentagon.

R / John

On 6/17/04 7:11 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

From what I understand the F/A-18E/F has slightly less range than the
Tomcat, but (with ATFLIR and the HMCS) is a much more capable Strike
Fighter... not to mention its much better maintenance numbers and radar.

Kinda sad, 30 years design progress and we get an airframe that can't exceed
... or even match ... the Turkey's performance (except at high alfa ... big
whoop!). Wouldn't have been a big deal to retrofit advanced WCS/Radar
capability. Of course the maintainability could not have been solved
without a clean sheet of paper redesign (pretty much what the E/F is
compared to the original Bug anyway).

R / John



You know me, John. Kool-Aid drinker. I'm telling you though. 2v1 or 1v1,
that high alpha's a big positive deal--against F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's.

Admittedly, that low top speeds a big negative deal too. Gotta stay and
fight. Can't run.

--Woody

You know me, John. Kool-Aid drinker. I'm telling you though. 2v1 or
1v1,
that high alpha's a big positive deal--against F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's.

Admittedly, that low top speeds a big negative deal too. Gotta stay and
fight. Can't run.

Yep, and in the real world it's the guy that's not part of your personal 1v1
that gets his silver star equivalent while you were dazzling his buddy.
Great fun, great way to be a target, great way to activate your SGLI.

R / John