Twenty Four Hour Spad Missions

I know of 12 hour flights but 24 seems a stretch. In order to stay
airborne that long your gas load would just about take up any chance of
carrying a weapon heavier than a hand gernade. I'd mostly worry about
oil in a hop that long. As I recall we had no oil quantity gauge and
when the pressure started to drop you had to be pretty close to a
suitable landing spot. Only heard of one "stay awake" pill, think it
was a bennie. Handy for liberty but really whacked you out after. Got
to wonder about the 3 hour FJ-4B hops. Must have been refueled?
FJ-4Bs I saw all leaked so much fluid just sitting on the line, I'd
think it'd be out of everything by 3 hours. My F-8 might make a 3.0
hop but I guarantee it'd end with an flame out approach. Happiness was
1.5 hour cycles. I had a 1.501 hour ass.

This was a pretty typical SIOP mission:
http://skyraider.org/skyassn/warstor/reid.htm

I'll bet some folks would like to see this kind of endurance on today's
flight deck...


Bob wrote:
I know of 12 hour flights but 24 seems a stretch. In order to stay
airborne that long your gas load would just about take up any chance
of
carrying a weapon heavier than a hand gernade. I'd mostly worry
about
oil in a hop that long. As I recall we had no oil quantity gauge and
when the pressure started to drop you had to be pretty close to a
suitable landing spot. Only heard of one "stay awake" pill, think it
was a bennie. Handy for liberty but really whacked you out after.
Got
to wonder about the 3 hour FJ-4B hops. Must have been refueled?
FJ-4Bs I saw all leaked so much fluid just sitting on the line, I'd
think it'd be out of everything by 3 hours. My F-8 might make a 3.0
hop but I guarantee it'd end with an flame out approach. Happiness
was
1.5 hour cycles. I had a 1.501 hour ass.

On 1 Feb 2005 05:45:27 -0800, wrote:



This was a pretty typical SIOP mission:
http://skyraider.org/skyassn/warstor/reid.htm

I'll bet some folks would like to see this kind of endurance on today's
flight deck...
Well - an S-3 has pretty good legs...

With 2 drops they can fly about 7.5 on max conserve. That might be to
low fuel warning lights though....

BTW, That's without re-fueling. The S-3 that brought the terrorist
back form the east Med in the 80's flew over 11.0, I think.

Regards,



Bob wrote:
I know of 12 hour flights but 24 seems a stretch. In order to stay
airborne that long your gas load would just about take up any chance
of
carrying a weapon heavier than a hand gernade. I'd mostly worry
about
oil in a hop that long. As I recall we had no oil quantity gauge and
when the pressure started to drop you had to be pretty close to a
suitable landing spot. Only heard of one "stay awake" pill, think it
was a bennie. Handy for liberty but really whacked you out after.
Got
to wonder about the 3 hour FJ-4B hops. Must have been refueled?
FJ-4Bs I saw all leaked so much fluid just sitting on the line, I'd
think it'd be out of everything by 3 hours. My F-8 might make a 3.0
hop but I guarantee it'd end with an flame out approach. Happiness
was
1.5 hour cycles. I had a 1.501 hour ass.

Charlie Wolf wrote:
On 1 Feb 2005 05:45:27 -0800, wrote:

This was a pretty typical SIOP mission:
http://skyraider.org/skyassn/warstor/reid.htm

I'll bet some folks would like to see this kind of endurance on today's
flight deck...

Well - an S-3 has pretty good legs...

With 2 drops they can fly about 7.5 on max conserve. That might be to
low fuel warning lights though....

BTW, That's without re-fueling. The S-3 that brought the terrorist
back form the east Med in the 80's flew over 11.0, I think.

I've got one hop over 10 hours in the H-60. That includes three or
four hot fuel stops (which is far more than necessary- between 3 and
3.5 hour flight is normal, I even got a 4.3 out of one tank in that
particular aircraft a week prior to the long flight- but it's better
to have too much than too little fuel) and admittedly one getting out
for a pitstop (no relief tubes in the model I flew). Actual strapped
in the seat time was over 12 hours, luckily no dry suit. Having a
flight crew for conversation helps make the time go by too.

Why such a long flight? My ship was on a hot range most of the
day... nothing special, no war or anything like that going on. Oh,
and to be clear, it was an experience I never care to repeat

Well - an S-3 has pretty good legs..
True, but they are all on the their way to some quiet retirement spots
in the desert.

With 2 drops they can fly about 7.5 on max conserve. That m=ADight be
to
low fuel warning lights though....

Its arguable that an aircraft in the vein of a Spad would have been a
much more suitable platform to have orbiting over Fallujah than what is
now available. While youir point about the Hoovers' long legs is a good
one, how many War Hoovers were waiting overhead to drop when the
Marines called? How dependent is carrier air on land based assets such
as tanker and ELINT today? Answer is: pretty much completely.
That's a particularly awkward issue in these tight budget times
considering that the traditional big selling point of carriers has
always been their ability to function *without* (the now absolutely
essential) land based support.
In 1961 the typical airgroup could boast an effective *unrefueled*
radius of 2000nm carrying a 12000 lb weapon(and that internally to
boot). Can a 2005 vintage CVG even match half of that 1961 era
unrefueled combat radius and deliver ordinace the size of a ~5000 lb.
GBU-37?

On 2 Feb 2005 14:20:26 -0800, wrote:

Well - an S-3 has pretty good legs..
True, but they are all on the their way to some quiet retirement spots
in the desert.

With 2 drops they can fly about 7.5 on max conserve. That m*ight be
to
low fuel warning lights though....

Its arguable that an aircraft in the vein of a Spad would have been a
much more suitable platform to have orbiting over Fallujah than what is
now available. While youir point about the Hoovers' long legs is a good
one, how many War Hoovers were waiting overhead to drop when the
Marines called?
Point conceded. I was only commenting on the original point
regarding ability to stay aloft - not necessarily on the ability to
drop bombs --- which, BTW, the S-3 is capable of doing, but I don't
believe anyone in their right mind would task them to do so....
Regards,



How dependent is carrier air on land based assets such
as tanker and ELINT today? Answer is: pretty much completely.
That's a particularly awkward issue in these tight budget times
considering that the traditional big selling point of carriers has
always been their ability to function *without* (the now absolutely
essential) land based support.
In 1961 the typical airgroup could boast an effective *unrefueled*
radius of 2000nm carrying a 12000 lb weapon(and that internally to
boot). Can a 2005 vintage CVG even match half of that 1961 era
unrefueled combat radius and deliver ordinace the size of a ~5000 lb.
GBU-37?

Very interesting post, sidis, think we must first decide on just what
the primary mission of our CVG's is or are. The 1961 whale could
indeed go out 2000 miles, drop an internally carried payload of 12000
lbs and have enough fuel to return. This hop would have to be
unescorted by fighters or ECM birds. Maybe an okay mission for SIOP
but not so good for over the beach stuff like, Vietnam, or IRAQ. I
think the major change is that our CVG isn't tasked to seek out and
destroy the Soviet fleet. Now the most likely scenarios include
missions over land defended by AAA and SAMs. Whales would not survive
there just as the Spads couldn't survive the North Vietnam defenses. I
think we have a brand new ball game to equip for. It wouldn't bother
me a bit to tank from a land based asset since we can get these tankers
to wherever. The CVG still needs an integral tanking capability and I
believe it has one, not like the old days but adequate to cover night
OPs, etc. If I need ECM jammers, I don't care where they come from,
overhead assets, EA-6's, or the girl scouts as long as they get it done
when I need it.

I completely agree that Marines could use some Spads overhead for some
realistic CAS but as long as we have a ROE which prohibits airplanes
from descending below 20 grand, well the Spad will have to remain a
relic of older days. I also agree we probably would be hard pressed to
make a 1000 mile, unrefueled strike with anything we have today. I'm
just not sure we need to anymore.

Interesting article in this month's Proceedings has this to say:
http://www.usni.org/proceedings/arti...o02Stone-2.htm
The Navy's senior leaders proudly assert that "naval aviation allows us
to take credible combat power across the globe without a permission
slip."23 This may once have been true, but the all-Hornet air wing is
sorely taxed to take its combat power further than 150 miles from the
nearest blue water. Except for small strikes, this capability, once
available to a carrier air wing with organic, dedicated tankers, now
exists only when the Navy has Air Force tanker support, which requires
permission from a host country.

I don't understand what you mean by " but the all-Hornet air wing is
sorely taxed to take its combat power further than 150 miles from the
nearest blue water.". Do you mean 150 miles from an overland target
area? I'm no fan of the short legged Hornet but I think it could make
a 500, maybe 600 mile strike and return? USAF and NATO tanker support
can be based a long ways from the target area, how far I don't know.
Probably far enough not to need a permission slip from any non-friendly
country. I would love to see an F-14/A-6 CVG but the chance of this is
about like getting Spad CAS for the Marines.

The 1961 whale could indeed go out 2000 miles, drop an internally
carried payload of 12000 lbs and have enough fuel to return. This hop
would have to be unescorted by fighters or ECM birds.

This is a mission the navy gave up when they didn't continue
"first-day-of-war" stealth after the demise of the A-12. This kind of
mission now belongs soley to the Air Force.

I think the major change is that our CVG isn't tasked to seek out and
destroy the Soviet fleet.

Actually, Heavy Attack died with the end of the carriers' primary SIOP
mission in the '60s and the retirement of the A-3s. Although the
ostensibly heavy RA-5's retained the capability to drop nukes, the
problems with the linear bomb bay meant that they could only carry much
smaller weapons underwing.
And it was the shift of the carriers' mission from Power Of Projection
Ashore to Sea Control (to use the parlance of the day) in 1971 and CVAs
became CVs that started the gradual deemphasis on range. The 80's saw
the rise of the Hornet and by the early '90s the From The Sea doctrine
was written for it's short legs. Whats ironic is that the carriers have
only Power Of Projection Ashore missions in anger since WWII.

It wouldn't bother me a bit to tank from a land based asset since we
can get these tankers to wherever.

We've been able to-so far. Can we continue to count on that ability? As
the Lieutenant said, carrier has always been touted for its ability to
operate *without* a permission slip, but that simply no longer true.
Also the Air Force can make the credible argument that their TACAIR
could be supported by those same tankers (and other vital support such
as ELINT)from bases that they will need regardless, carry something
bigger than a 2000 lb bomb with first day of war stealth, and perhaps
most importantly, with carriers now obligated to fight from the very
dangerous littorals that force protection no longer favors the navy.