If there were 25 million active GA pilots...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

You shut down both of them and wait for the smoke to clear. Then you
cautiously turn them on one at a time and see which one produces smoke.

If you are IMC you cannot turn both electrical systems off in an airplane
with no vacuum system.


Or your observe your panel status lights to determine which is having bus
problems, then shutdown the inop one.

What if there is just smoke but no panel status light change?



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

You shut down both of them and wait for the smoke to clear. Then you
cautiously turn them on one at a time and see which one produces
smoke.

If you are IMC you cannot turn both electrical systems off in an airplane
with no vacuum system.


Or your observe your panel status lights to determine which is having
bus
problems, then shutdown the inop one.

What if there is just smoke but no panel status light change?

What if you shutdown both electrical systems and the smoke only increases?

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

What if you shutdown both electrical systems and the smoke only increases?

If it is a non-electrical fire that is a separate issue.

But by having only electric gyros it becomes much harder to deal with an
electrical fire.

Airliners have fire-suppression systems which make this situation less
likely than a GA airplane.

I cannot imagine flying an electric-only airplane with no vacuum backup.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...



"Tom S." wrote in message
...

What if you shutdown both electrical systems and the smoke only
increases?

If it is a non-electrical fire that is a separate issue.

I know...I was just pulling your crank :~)


But by having only electric gyros it becomes much harder to deal with an
electrical fire.
....

I cannot imagine flying an electric-only airplane with no vacuum backup.

The real "best of both worlds" is a dual bus electrical system with a vacuum
for backup/redundancy.

I wonder how soon that arrangement might make it's way into the lower
echelon of GA aircraft now that miniaturization is becoming so prevalent.

Tom
--
"Federal personnel data show that just 434 civilian federal workers were
fired for poor performance in 2001. Just 210 non-defense workers,
or 1 in 5,000, were fired for poor performance. Firing rates were
similarly low in prior years, and are low across all agencies."

NOTE: "Poor performance" is pretty much limited to sexual harassment, theft,
assault, and other criminal actions. Even that is not often enough for a
federal
employment termination.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...


The real "best of both worlds" is a dual bus electrical system with a
vacuum
for backup/redundancy.

Yes, I agree completely.

Unfortunately, Cirrus seems to be leading the way without vacuum systems and
I do not think this is a good idea.

To some extent this has parallels with Cirrus installing the ballistic
parachute and using that as an excuse to not perform spin testing.

Similarly this reminds me of the discussion I had with a Cirrus rep at
Oshkosh about their TKS de-icing system option. The rep said it was
"Certified for Inadvertent Icing" which he said was a step between
non-approved deicing equipment and known-icing approval. I say that is
nonsesnse -- what they probably have is an STC approved on a "does no harm"
basis and you could get a tuna fish sandwich on the copilot seat approved
under the same terms. It is not known-ice.

I think Cirrus has some great ideas for safety but I am not certain the
execution is optimum or complete on a number of them.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

How about one of those fan type generators you can lower into the
slipstream? Don't some airliners have something like that or is it just
something I saw in a movie?

mike regish

P.S. I'm a federal employee with a couple of bosses I'd like to deck. How do
I do it without getting fired? ;-)

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

The real "best of both worlds" is a dual bus electrical system with a
vacuum
for backup/redundancy.

I wonder how soon that arrangement might make it's way into the lower
echelon of GA aircraft now that miniaturization is becoming so prevalent.

Tom
--
"Federal personnel data show that just 434 civilian federal workers were
fired for poor performance in 2001. Just 210 non-defense workers,
or 1 in 5,000, were fired for poor performance. Firing rates were
similarly low in prior years, and are low across all agencies."

NOTE: "Poor performance" is pretty much limited to sexual harassment,
theft,
assault, and other criminal actions. Even that is not often enough for a
federal
employment termination.

mike regish wrote:

How about one of those fan type generators you can lower into the
slipstream? Don't some airliners have something like that or is it just
something I saw in a movie?

Dunno about airliners, but the Cessna Owners Organization magazine used to carry
ads for those things. In 1995, one cost $1,495 and STCs were available for a
Cessna 210 and Piper PA-32. Sold by Basic Aircraft Products in Evans Georgia.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

mike regish wrote ...
How about one of those fan type generators you can lower into the
slipstream? Don't some airliners have something like that or is it just
something I saw in a movie?

mike regish


Indeed, it's the RAT or ram air turbine. Its purpose is to generate enough
power to keep the plane flying. In
some planes it pressurizes the ciritcal hydraulics too, as
well as the more important avionics.

Reminds me of the venturi tubes used to generate vacuum for the attitude
indicator in old Tiger Moths. I guess it was pretty reliable. Maybe these
things still have a place in modern airplanes alongside the computers ;-)

/ Nils

Reminds me of the venturi tubes used to generate vacuum for the attitude
indicator in old Tiger Moths. I guess it was pretty reliable. Maybe these
things still have a place in modern airplanes alongside the computers ;-)

/ Nils

You don't have to go back that far! The vacuum system in my IFR equipped
1953 Cessna 170 was powered via a venturi. Works perfectly well
(as long as you don't run into to much ice) But that's why you
have an electric T&B

~Paul Mennen

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:38:40 GMT, mike regish wrote:
How about one of those fan type generators you can lower into the
slipstream? Don't some airliners have something like that or is it just
something I saw in a movie?

I think they are called a 'ram air turbine'.

On the Diamond DA-40, with all electrical IFR instruments, there is a
battery backup for the AI which is totally separate from the normal
electrical buses (activated by a guarded switch). The backup is powered
by a pack of alkaline (Duracell) batteries (with expiry date), and IIRC,
lasts quite a long time if you need to use it.

I'd much rather have electric AI and DG and vacuum TC in the traditional
set-up. I've seen numerous vacuum failures, but in over 1000 hours of
flying I've yet to see an electrical failure where I've had no power
at all. I'd rather have the most useful instruments powered by the most
reliable source.o

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"