HELP! To buy or not...rough 63 aztec for $25,000

david wrote in message ...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken.

What is your long range plan with the plane? Keep it? Sell it? This
will determine whether or not this kind of investment is valuable.
Although there are exceptions it is usually better to purchase a plane
in the condition you want versus buying a fix-it upper and shelling
out $10000s in the repair/refinishing process. However, the $25k
purchase price makes this worth evaluating.

If you completely overhaul the plane and make everything in it new -
depending on airframe time, you probably have a market value $100k
airplane. Skip a bit here/there and you probably have a $75k
airplane, so you have a $50k budget to work with.

Start with a few of the basics: What is the airframe time? Are all
ADs complied with (should look at the SBs too) - did you have an
independent mechanic verify this? It can cost a 1000s if not 10000s
to comply with ADs and SBs. Is there damage history to the plane (and
is it recent?) - if so this will subtract significantly from the end
market value.

A cracked cylyinder probably won't cost $5k to repair, but I'm
guessing these engines will need more work than the $5k to be/stay
airworthy. A safe bet would be to expect a MOH in the near future...
Factoryengines.com lists an overhauled IO540 at $22k each. What are
the compressions? How long ago was the MOH? How long since the mags
were overhauled? How about the ignition wiring and plugs? I think
most Lycomings are a 12 year or 2000hr TBO.

New paint on a twin will be about $10k. Hopefully they will not find
corrosion when the paint is peeled.

A nice interior on a twin will be $10k. $5k if you go with fabrics
only (no leather) and do not replace the interior plastics. New
windows would be $2k installed.

Avionics are a wild card and are up to you. You can easily spend
$30-40k on a panel. However, for the most bang for the buck, you
could add 1 GNS430 for about $10k installed and have IFR certified
GPS/VOR/LOC/GS. The plane would probably need a good audio
panel/intercom, which would be $3500 installed. Autopilots
particularly older ones can be troublesome to repair/maintain - you
may want to consider purchasing a new AP. An STEC-30 (altitude hold)
autopilot will cost about $10k installed. You could look on Ebay to
find a used KX-155 and KI209 as a backup NAV/COM.

New gyros might be a consideration, as would be a reconfiguration of
the panel to a standard T instrument layout. This would be another
$2-3K.

Another thing to consider - expect LONG downtimes during your
refurbishment. Probably a month (at least) for your major overhauls.
A month for the P&I. A month for the avionics and gyro work. Plus a
few more months to get various gremlins worked out. That would be a
best case... Paying $10k/yr insurance plus hangar, plus cost of
capital, plus maintenance bills really sucks when you are not getting
to fly. On that note, it might make sense to only use the plane
privately for the first year while you are doing the rehab. No sense
in paying commercial insurance rates if the plane is going to sit in
the maintenance shop.

Last, you mentioned an $80/hr operating rate for the Aztec. I assume
you mean the fuel only cost. Most light twins cost about 2.5x the
hourly fuel cost to operate.

Good luck!
-Nathan

I agree completely with your conclusions- a new owner will never recover the
full value of investments in refurbishing a beat airplane, 20-30cents on a
dollar may be close.

However, your estimates on the cost of repairs seem a bit low. Paint on a
twin for $10,000 is kind of a budget job. For that amount of money you can
expect the screws and panels to be painted over (not removed prior to
paint), as well as no extras like painting the gear legs or wheel wells.
Don't be surprised if there are a fair number of paint runs or overspray. A
top notch job, with complete body work, stripping, primer, paint, and
replacement of all hardware with stainless will run closer to $20,000.

A new interior with leather, new carpeting, and a cleanup of the headliner
will run more like $15,000. You might do an Airtex home job for around
$5,000 if you have the time.

New IO-540's will probably be on the order of $30-35,000 each, particularly
with new hoses and accessories, unless they're turbocharged, which could go
up to around $45,000 each. Don't forget prop overhauls as well.

New boots will be around $25,000-30,000 as well. Avionics can be the biggest
variable. An autopilot (nearly a necessity for flying a twin in weather) is
going to be more like $15-20,000. The S-TEC 30 is a good basic unit (I have
one in my single with altitude hold), but may not adequate for a plane flown
frequently in IMC.

I have experienced most of the above over the last two years that I have
owned a B-55, except the engines. Instead of boots, I went with TKS, which
provides known icing certification by STC. Unlike boots, there is no
maintenance required, and they will not need replacement unless you run the
wing into something. New thicker windows were installed by Beryl D'Shannon,
and paint was done by Dial Eastern in Ohio. The plane is now at Airmod for a
complete leather interior.

From personal experience, I will never recover even a small fraction of my
investments. This approach is OK if you plan on keeping the plane for a
while, but if you want to trade up every few years, a better approach might
be to find something that comes closest to meeting your needs at a good
price, then selling up when you want more speed or room.

(Nathan Young) writes:

Paying $10k/yr insurance plus hangar, plus cost of
capital, plus maintenance bills really sucks when you are not getting
to fly.

Insurance shouldn't be nearly that much for non-moving coverage.
Ours wasn't.

'course it still sucks.

--kyler

Doesn't sound like a good first plane to me. First, you have no idea of
what everything will cost to fix. Second you seem concerned with the cost
of the fuel burn, this will turn out to be a trivial expense in the scheme
of things. The only way it might make sense is if you NEED a twin, can fly
it "as is" (after replacing the cylinder) and plan to sell it in a few years
cheap.

Mike
MU-2

"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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I never like to rain on someones parade just because they are new to the
game, but this airplane will be trouble...
Your initial engine repair estimates are low by a factor of 3X just to get
em running properly - and then only for a time, maybe a year or so... You
are likely to then find that the engines will both need major overhauls...
One already has the sickness, and as soon as you start using them, so will
the other...
Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits.. Once that
little overhaul is done, you will discover that the rpm wobble also involved
the prop controllers, for a another thousand bucks or so...
You likely will discover that the power pack needs an overhaul, where you
will then discover that most of the hydraulic hoses need replacing... Not
to mention that you need new seals on the gear cylinders, and that the pivot
bushings are shot, causing you to drop the gear - where you will find or
break some limit switches and wiring that needs replacing...
And, while we are on hoses, how about the fuel lines, hmmm? And, you better
get a look at the fuel bladders - probably gonna need some bucks thrown at
them..
Now, lets get into the control surfaces... Most likely the pivot bushings
are worn and the surfaces are sloppy and will need a rebuild... And, how
are the cables and pulleys? And, while we are inside the fuselage how many
AD's have not been done, hmmm? Don't tell me about the log book, have the
mechanic go look.. There's gonna be some surprises on a ship that was not
maintained in the first place

Awww riiight, I'm only getting warmed up (I do speak Aztec) but I'm gonna
stop beating on you here... I hope you get the picture, and that you get
actual, real world, estimates before putting down one penny your paint
estimate is out to lunch... If in the end the math adds up for you, then
go for it... Me, I would look for a plane that was maintained that is in
the $75K - $100K range, that I can fly away - and save myself a lot of grief
and dollars in the end..
Denny

"david" wrote in message
...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...

Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits..

Right, I believe this things has the Hartzell X/V hub props on them.
They're probably already unserviceable. Has the first inspection
required by the AD from a few years back been done yet? This
is done every 250 (or 500 hours). A large number of the props
sent to Hartzell for the inspections get defiled by Hartzell as unserviceable.

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Next, you may find that the props and hubs are out of limits..

He said it has brand new props.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

My initial reaction is first plane? save money? if you have to ask,
don't? Buy it if you WANT a project, otherwise no. It's more difficult
to get work done on a plane than you think. Planes consume money, they
don't save money. What about the down time while it gets repaired?
Usually the running costs of an airplane swamp the purchase costs
anyway, so saving money on purchase becomes a moot point. YOu will
spend the purchase cost in 500 hours of flight running costs. Saving a
little in purchase cost is very minor in the overall long term scheme
of things. Planning on scotching on running maintenance too? If you
have the money, buy a plane in the absolute BEST running condition
with the avionics and options YOU WANT and will be satisfied with. If
you want to save a little money, but a hail damaged plane, they fly
just fine and are 10k less. Also, if you want to save money, ramp it,
not hangar it. Also, if you want to save money, buy liability
insurance only and BE CAREFUL. But don't buy a project to save money.
They don't.

david wrote in message ...
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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david wrote:

I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?)

$15K times two, as surely the other one is worthless.


Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?)

About $10K to paint an Aztec, although this could wait.


Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?).

That's about right and will get you leather and all new plastic, carpet,
headliner, etc.


Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
$5K-50K here, depending on what you want to do.


Auto pilot broken.

An STEC two axis AP is about $11K installed.


It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal?

An old neglected twin is never a good deal.

As other have posted. Two words of advice: "Run" and "Away". Seriously.
The plane you describe in the condition you describe is likely junk.
Salvage. Please keep looking and find a decent airplane. Spend the $80k
to get one "ready to go". Better yet, spend $100k and get a newer one in
better condition.

Airplane economics are unlike anything else on the planet (except maybe
US government defense spending). You can easily spend way more to get
this plane operational than it is worth. 1200 SMOH on the engines?
Figure replacing both of them immediately. Why? A plane that has been
deteriorated as you describe is not going to miraculously have decent
engines. They are no doubt in the same shape as the rest of the plane.
Beat up, cheaped out, worn out. If they were recent factory overhauls
with warranties, MAYBE. One cracked cylinder... so far.

Good airplanes are not sold with this kind of laundry list. The
seller(s) KNOWS it will cost more to bring the thing up to snuff than
they could possibly fetch. Otherwise, why would they not get the work
done and MAKE MORE MONEY?????

My rule of thumb is: consider a plane with no more than ONE weak area
(engine(s)/prop(s), airframe paint, interior, avionics). This plane
needs all 4. Game over.

Your avionics guy is an excellent choice to check out the plane...
AVIONICS. Nothing more. You need a type-familiar IA to do a $500-$1000
pre-buy inspection on this beast. Others will scream at that price
(remember gang, 2 engines, 2 props, landing gear, 30+ year old plane),
but pre-buys are just like insurance - pay a little, get a lot.. of
risk! Don't worry, you will most likely never finish the pre-buy
inspection. I would put money on the inspection stopping very early on
when several other major problems are "discovered".

The market is depressed and planes are moving slowly. You should be able
to leverage a pretty good deal on a decent plane if you keep looking.

Good Luck,
Mike

david wrote:
I have a chance to buy a 63 aztec in rough condition. It would be my
first plane. Engines have 1200 smoh but one has a cracked cylinder.
(estimated repair, $5000?) Paint is poor. ($5000 estimate?) Interior is
poor ($5000 estimate?). Brand new props. Only 1 nav/com. older avionics.
Auto pilot broken. It was used as a survey aircraft and has a certified
hole cut. I could potentially use it for aerial work as my company subs
about $50,000 in photography per year (5 jobs). I have a good pilot to
split costs with. He has the commercial rating and would fly while
working. Insurance would be $10,000 for the commercial type. I am a bit
concerned about the
$80/ hour fuel burn and the potential for gremlins on an older not so
well maintained airplane. The price seems very reasonable which is the
main motivation for buying. 25,000+5000+5000+5000= $40,000 for a aztec
with new props, survey hole, new paint and interior. Am I missing
something? Is this a good deal? Most of the similar year planes I have
seen are about $80,000. My buddy is an avionics repaiman and would
thoroughly check the plane prior to the purchase. Could it be resold at
a profit if I needed to? Please give any advice as I don't want to make
a big mistake. Thanks in advance.
David

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