Opinions on 1981 172P - First Airplane

" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
...

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

Tom -

I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.

I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
right now.

My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks for your help.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
.. .

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

"Jerry Napoliano" wrote in message
...
Tom -

I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.

I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
right now.

I'm sure you've heard (and will continue to hear) that you need to do a lot
of "homework" before hand. IAC, here's the biggest butt-kick you'll ever
hear: how much reserve ($$$) do you have for maintainance? With an airplane,
Murphy's Law, pertaining to maintenance is particularly acute. Aircraft are
much more susceptible to defered maintenance than just about any other
mechanical device than can hurt you.

What is the profile of your typical pleasure trip? 100NM? 300? 500? How many
passengers and how much baggage?

My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

TBO is a funny measure. It's a recommend "life expectancy" established by
the manufacturer.

For example, if the cost of an overhaul is $20,000 and your TBO is 2000
hours, then you can deduct $10 an hour from the normal price. When I bought
mine, it was 60 hours to TBO, but could (and will) go much longer. The
inspection revealed "like new" compressions, no metal in the oil, top end in
excellent shape...

Here is a good article that explains a lot and dispells a lot of OWT's (Old
Wives Tales).
-------------------------------
April 14, 2004
The Savvy Aviator #4: Debunking TBO

Engine TBO (time between overhauls) seems to be one of the most
misunderstood concepts in aviation maintenance. There are lots of
TBO-related old wives tales that are widely believed by owners and mechanic
alike, and they can cost owners a great deal of money. Mike Busch endeavors
to clear up these misconceptions, and explain what TBO really means.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187037-1.html
-------------------------------------

As "Maule Driver" pointed out, don't be in a rush, and I'd add, don't be
fooled by cosmetics. You pointed out "well maintained" and that's a key if
you don't want someone elses problems and are willing to pay for it. This is
even more cogent in aircraft, I think, than in other endeavors (cars, homes,
spouses).

Remember, it's still a buyers market right now, so take your time and take a
lot of time to dig through all the lists. (I took nine months and checked
out over thirty aircraft before finding what I wanted (close to TBO so I
could do an engine upgrade) and a seller who knew what his airplane was
worth and took good care of it...and I'm not know for my patience.)


Thanks for your help.

Your welcome. The people in here are very knowlegeable and experienced (if
opinionated :~) )and they steered me away from a couple disasters. Don't be
afraid to ask questions, even seemingly silly ones. And remember, the final
decision is yours and you get to enjoy it on YOUR terms, or you have to bear
the burden.

Good luck!

Tom Six


On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:


" Jerry Napoliano wrote in message
.. .

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?
And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination
of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED
airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?