Diesel aircraft engines and are the light jets pushing out the twins?

In article , wrote:
Put a 180 HP turbine in a 172 and you would have a real 4 place A/C,
though one with a long, funny looking nose to make the W/B work out.

The trouble is the missions a C172 flies (typically short distances, low
altitudes) makes a turbine incredibly fuel inefficient - all that useful
load would be taken up by the fully-filled additional tanks you'd need
to fly the same distance as the 180hp piston version. Just take a look
at the turbine Piper Meridian for some of the problems that has - if you
want to take 4 people in a Meridian, you have barely an hour of fuel
with basic IFR reserves. Top the tanks for decent range and it's a 2
person plane.

For normal light GA altitudes, a recip diesel is much better suited -
the extra weight is offset by not needing anywhere near as much fuel,
and it's efficient at the low altitudes we tend to fly at.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

A gas turbine scales up easily and but is nearly impossible to scale
down. The auto manuacturers found that out in the 1940s - remember
the "car of the future" on the covers of Popular Science et al?
Turbines for cars are further away now than they were 55 years ago.
The turbine suffers from excessive fuel consumption at part throttle
(the piston engine is incredibly flexible that way)and in smaller HP
installations.

So much of the useful load of an aircraft is fuel, that fuel
efficiency is very important for overall mission performance.

The problem of an engine is to find the most efficient way to expand a
certain flow rate of compressed hot gas to atmospheric pressures. A
turbine can do this with large mass flow rates, but as the flow rates
become smaller, the turbine speeds (rpm) must increase enormously and
the centrifugal accelerations get out of hand. On the other hand, a
piston can process an expansion efficiently with small flow rates.

Think of it this way - a model airplane engine can be made to run with
1/20 of a cubic inch (.049 cu inch to even .010 cu inch), but piston
engine aircraft became impractical above a few thousand HP. That is
the range of practicality for a piston concept.

An engineering prof once said - if the gas turbine had been invented
first, the piston engine would have been looked on an ingeneous
solution to the turbine's material and speed and power range problems.

Diesels may eventually make it. They have a weight problem that may
be offset by a lower specific fuel consumption, but for a given
operating condition, spark ignition engines can nearly approach the
consumption of diesels by using turbo compounding and operation only
at full throttle.

In article ,
) wrote:

Think of it this way - a model airplane engine can be made to run with
1/20 of a cubic inch (.049 cu inch to even .010 cu inch), but piston
engine aircraft became impractical above a few thousand HP. That is
the range of practicality for a piston concept.

It is certainly possible to build much larger piston engines than that.
How about http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Howdy!

In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
) wrote:

Think of it this way - a model airplane engine can be made to run with
1/20 of a cubic inch (.049 cu inch to even .010 cu inch), but piston
engine aircraft became impractical above a few thousand HP. That is
the range of practicality for a piston concept.

It is certainly possible to build much larger piston engines than that.
How about http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

But it is a *little bit* impractical as an *aircraft* engine...

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Roy Smith wrote:

It is certainly possible to build much larger piston engines than that.
How about http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Ah! I've always wondered how that Antonov 225 Mrija was powered...

Stefan

In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
A gas turbine scales up easily and but is nearly impossible to scale
down. The auto manuacturers found that out in the 1940s - remember
the "car of the future" on the covers of Popular Science et al?
Turbines for cars are further away now than they were 55 years ago.
The turbine suffers from excessive fuel consumption at part throttle
(the piston engine is incredibly flexible that way)and in smaller HP
installations.

So much of the useful load of an aircraft is fuel, that fuel
efficiency is very important for overall mission performance.

The problem of an engine is to find the most efficient way to expand a
certain flow rate of compressed hot gas to atmospheric pressures. A
turbine can do this with large mass flow rates, but as the flow rates
become smaller, the turbine speeds (rpm) must increase enormously and
the centrifugal accelerations get out of hand. On the other hand, a
piston can process an expansion efficiently with small flow rates.

Think of it this way - a model airplane engine can be made to run with
1/20 of a cubic inch (.049 cu inch to even .010 cu inch), but piston
engine aircraft became impractical above a few thousand HP. That is
the range of practicality for a piston concept.

An engineering prof once said - if the gas turbine had been invented
first, the piston engine would have been looked on an ingeneous
solution to the turbine's material and speed and power range problems.

Diesels may eventually make it. They have a weight problem that may
be offset by a lower specific fuel consumption, but for a given
operating condition, spark ignition engines can nearly approach the
consumption of diesels by using turbo compounding and operation only
at full throttle.

While not quite a .049, here's a 3.7" in diameter, 2.6 lb turbine
that produces 16.5 lb of thrust.

http://jetcatusa.sitewavesonline.net/p70.html

Their biggest turbine is 5.12", 5 lb, and produces 45 lb of thrust.

Here's another outfit that sells a 3.5" diameter, 7.25" long, 1.9 lb
turbine with 11.4 lb of thrust.

http://www.swbturbines.com/model_turbines.htm

Now granted these are turbojets, not turboprops, but it appears to me
that making small turbines is possible...


--
Jim Pennino

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wrote:

Now granted these are turbojets, not turboprops, but it appears to me
that making small turbines is possible...

Nobody ever said that it's not possible. It's just not economical and
will never be.

Stefan

In rec.aviation.owning Stefan wrote:
wrote:

Now granted these are turbojets, not turboprops, but it appears to me
that making small turbines is possible...

Nobody ever said that it's not possible. It's just not economical and
will never be.

Stefan

Several people have said that but I've yet to see any analysis (with
numbers) to back up that contention.

Since (current) turbines are terribly inefficient at low throttle, I can
see the problem with an aircraft that spends most of the time doing
touch and goes.

But where is the crossover point as dictated by the physics of turbines?

C-182? C-209? Caravan? Whoops, that last one is already a turbine.

--
Jim Pennino

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About the size of the Caravan 900hp+

Mike
MU-2

wrote in message
...
In rec.aviation.owning Stefan wrote:
wrote:

Now granted these are turbojets, not turboprops, but it appears to me
that making small turbines is possible...

Nobody ever said that it's not possible. It's just not economical and
will never be.

Stefan

Several people have said that but I've yet to see any analysis (with
numbers) to back up that contention.

Since (current) turbines are terribly inefficient at low throttle, I can
see the problem with an aircraft that spends most of the time doing
touch and goes.

But where is the crossover point as dictated by the physics of turbines?

C-182? C-209? Caravan? Whoops, that last one is already a turbine.

--
Jim Pennino

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In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport wrote:
About the size of the Caravan 900hp+

Mike
MU-2

According to the Cessna website, the current Caravan is 675hp.

--
Jim Pennino

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