Talk About A Rude Company,

NW_PILOT wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
aforementioned sentence until you believe it.

If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
(a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).

Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
most pilots coming out of training, anyway.



Thanks for your advice, I am not looking for the 2 week warrior type of
training but I may have to resort to that, I am just looking for an honest
company to deal with I would work locally if the fbo's were reasonable
priced for the quality and type of instruction I will be receiving and
aircraft I will be flying. I would like to be a competent & safe IFR pilot.

I don't know why you think that it is only your area that has bad FBOs
and poor flight instruction. There are good and bad everywhere, it
isn't localized to just your region. The reality is that there is very
little margin in flight instruction and airplane rental these days.
Most FBOs are working on the edge of bankruptcy and they have to be at
least as careful about their students as the students must be about
their instructors. It sounds to me that you come across, probably
unintentionally, as a "high maintenance" student who will only cause the
FBO grief later with your desire for guarantees. There are no
guarantees in life and certainly not in flight instruction. Almost all
of the guarantees have fine print with a number of exclusions.

I'd say quit looking for guarantees and look instead for a good flight
instructor and a decent aircraft. It is certainly OK to qualify the FBO
and instructor, but once you get to the 20th question and start asking
for guarantees, I don't blame them for writing you off as potential
trouble and hanging up. The best question to ask is for a list of their
references. Try to get the last 5 students (not just any 5 which allows
them to pick the happy ones only). This may not be possible due to
privacy concerns, but it is an easy question to ask and, if successful
in getting the list, saves having to ask 19 more questions and beginning
to raise the "high maintenance" red flag.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
NW_PILOT wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
aforementioned sentence until you believe it.

If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
(a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).

Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
most pilots coming out of training, anyway.



Thanks for your advice, I am not looking for the 2 week warrior type of
training but I may have to resort to that, I am just looking for an
honest
company to deal with I would work locally if the fbo's were reasonable
priced for the quality and type of instruction I will be receiving and
aircraft I will be flying. I would like to be a competent & safe IFR
pilot.

I don't know why you think that it is only your area that has bad FBOs
and poor flight instruction. There are good and bad everywhere, it
isn't localized to just your region. The reality is that there is very
little margin in flight instruction and airplane rental these days.
Most FBOs are working on the edge of bankruptcy and they have to be at
least as careful about their students as the students must be about
their instructors. It sounds to me that you come across, probably
unintentionally, as a "high maintenance" student who will only cause the
FBO grief later with your desire for guarantees. There are no
guarantees in life and certainly not in flight instruction. Almost all
of the guarantees have fine print with a number of exclusions.

I'd say quit looking for guarantees and look instead for a good flight
instructor and a decent aircraft. It is certainly OK to qualify the FBO
and instructor, but once you get to the 20th question and start asking
for guarantees, I don't blame them for writing you off as potential
trouble and hanging up. The best question to ask is for a list of their
references. Try to get the last 5 students (not just any 5 which allows
them to pick the happy ones only). This may not be possible due to
privacy concerns, but it is an easy question to ask and, if successful
in getting the list, saves having to ask 19 more questions and beginning
to raise the "high maintenance" red flag.


Matt

Hello, Matt

I am not looking for any guarantees in the instruction or amount of time I
know that's impoosible to do, it just cought my eye and wonderd what type of
writen guarante they provided. The only guarantees I am looking for is:

That the flight instructor going to be around for a certain amount of time
to finish my training?
That the flight school is financially stable and not in a sale or on the
verge of bankruptcy.
I want my instruction and rental rates guaranteed for a certain amount of
time I don't what them raising the rates as I progress in training it has
happened once already to me they raised the rates 3 times in 2 months at one
flight school.
I want to know if they have enough aircraft if one breaks down or has a
problem it will be fixed in a timly monor or I will have another aircraft to
fly at the same rental rate and that they don't plan on getting rid of the
aircraft anytime soon.

I am not asking for to much I just want to know that I am dealing with a
honest company that's not going to use fraud or deception to make a quick
dollar.

NW_PILOT wrote:

I am not looking for any guarantees in the instruction or amount of time I
know that's impoosible to do, it just cought my eye and wonderd what type of
writen guarante they provided. The only guarantees I am looking for is:

That the flight instructor going to be around for a certain amount of time
to finish my training?

You will never get that guarantee. I don't think any business will even
attempt to guarantee that and in most cases can't do it legally.
Indentured servitude went out the window years ago. In our "employment
at will" system, anyone can quit when they want and be fired at any time
by their employer. This is a case of an unreasonable expectation. I
had four flight instructors during my instrument training, including one
at FlightSafety in Lakeland, FL (since closed), that was a complete
disaster. I'd heard a lot of hype about FS, but that location didn't
live up to the hype even a little. It was worse than the two mom & pop
FBOs that I used (one before FS and one after). I finally found a great
free-lance instructor and finished my rating quickly.


That the flight school is financially stable and not in a sale or on the
verge of bankruptcy.

Very few private companies will disclose their financials. The only way
to know this is to only look at public corporations that offer flight
instruction. Their are probably a few of the big ones that are, but you
won't find many.


I want my instruction and rental rates guaranteed for a certain amount of
time I don't what them raising the rates as I progress in training it has
happened once already to me they raised the rates 3 times in 2 months at one
flight school.

Again, this isn't a reasonably request given the volatility of fuel
prices, insurance, etc. The only way you might get this is if you pay
the full estimated cost in advance. You are willing to do that, right?


I want to know if they have enough aircraft if one breaks down or has a
problem it will be fixed in a timly monor or I will have another aircraft to
fly at the same rental rate and that they don't plan on getting rid of the
aircraft anytime soon.

Again, very unlikely you will ever get a guarantee on this. And, again,
you have now pretty well ruled out most mom & pop FBOs and will need to
look only at large outfits such as FS, American Flyers, etc., which come
with their own baggage.


I am not asking for to much I just want to know that I am dealing with a
honest company that's not going to use fraud or deception to make a quick
dollar.

You are expecting way too much for this business in today's environment.
You are asking for way more than honesty and lack of fraud, you are
asking for guarantees on things that no business, let along an FBO, can
provide. I can see now why you had such a bad experience on the phone
with the San Diego FBO. You problem is staring at you from your
bathroom mirror, I believe.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Indentured servitude went out the window years ago.

Seriously?! My boss tells a different story.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:


Indentured servitude went out the window years ago.


Seriously?! My boss tells a different story.

Where do you work, Disney Land? :-)


Matt

Oh, yeah...and if you have time to burn and still want to save money, check
out the aviation program at Mt Hood Community College. You'd still fly
locally--I still recommend Gorge Winds over the other FBO--but MHCC has an
instrument simulator as well that is $50/hr with instruction.

Having said that, I never used the sim. Now I'm looking at extending my
financial debt to pay for my commercial training. :

-c