Control Tower Controversy brewing in the FAA

"Brooks Hagenow" wrote in message
y.com...
"PlanetJ" wrote in message
news
That gives me a warm fuzzy. Knowing the separation of aircraft in IFR
weather is done by low bidder's and profit based.


And it gives you more comfort knowing that the current employers of those
maintaining separation are the same that keep up the high quality service
at
the post office and DMV?

....and Amtrak, public schools...

Think of it this way, if a private company does a bad job, you fire them
and
get a company that will do the job. If the government does a bad job, you
get to listen to senators try to justify spending more money and raising
taxes while the problem never gets fixed.

IOW; we screwed up, so let us fix it.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Brooks Hagenow" wrote in message
y.com...
"PlanetJ" wrote in message
news
That gives me a warm fuzzy. Knowing the separation of aircraft in IFR
weather is done by low bidder's and profit based.

And it gives you more comfort knowing that the current employers of
those
maintaining separation are the same that keep up the high quality
service at
the post office and DMV?

...and Amtrak, public schools...

Immagine the black hole "Government Airlines" would be.

Think of it this way, if a private company does a bad job, you fire them
and
get a company that will do the job. If the government does a bad job,
you
get to listen to senators try to justify spending more money and raising
taxes while the problem never gets fixed.

IOW; we screwed up, so let us fix it.

I think pilots might enjoy more inforamtion under some automatic system.

Highly skilled Air Traffic controllers and radar/ computer/communication
specialist's in the FAA compared to Post Office workers? Have you ever been
inside a FAA TRACON or Air Route Center Brooke? Probably Not. Big difference
between putting letters in a box and moving Air Traffic at 600 miles an
hour.

So the current AT system is bad? You want to monkey with something that
controls thousands of lives each day?Oh, it didn't work we will fire you. In
the mean time thousands of burnt bodies are scattered all over the country
side? Boy, that makes a lot of since.

We use Federal workers to inspect underwear bags at airports and Salmon
guts in Alaska but it's OK to turn over Air Traffic control to a private
company. When that happens, I will can my ticket and ride the bus.


And it gives you more comfort knowing that the current employers of those
maintaining separation are the same that keep up the high quality service
at
the post office and DMV?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Brooks Hagenow" wrote in message
y.com...

Think of it this way, if a private company does a bad job, you fire them
and
get a company that will do the job. If the government does a bad job,
you
get to listen to senators try to justify spending more money and raising
taxes while the problem never gets fixed.


Is ATC doing a bad job?

Human directed ATC can't compete with automation from a probabilities, or
capacity, standpoint. Besides that Steve, he is refering to firing
Contractors. Eventually less people will be needed to control the sky and
Contractors are a lot easier to get rid of than Civil Service.

They evolved INTO democracies...then collapsed. Even Greece and Rome
started
as republics, then degenerated into democracies...just like we're doing.

Degenerated? I always thought democracy was the better of the two. At least
it always was through all those games of Civ.


of countries which have reverted to dictatorship after a period of
democracy, have since gone BACK to democracy.

And what is different in their composition since the reverted to
democracy?

I don't know offhand. Germany's democracy after the third reich, I suspect,
was different than before. I would guess that the second incarnation of
democracy either gave more power to the individual, or more to the state,
depending on the particular case.

What am I supposed to be agreeing with? Most people are capable of
understanding that money doesn't grow on trees.

Capable yes...dealing it with, no.

I disagree.

The trouble is having
representatives who can't or won't tell their constituents that the well
is
dry.

When they do, they get bounced from office.

I definitely disagree. At least the time it takes for them to get bounced
needs improvement.


Or who say that the well is dry when it isn't.
I take issue with his assertion that we're going to vote ourselves into
debt
until we collapse under it. Not that it's untrue, but he doesn't seem to
allow for the idea that people will eventually get wise to what they're
doing TO THEMSELVES.

It allows for it, but tell me an instance when the "addicts" have ever
moved
to avert the inevitiable reckoning.

The American Revolution, the American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea,
Vietnam.......


And the Repub's only milked the booming tech sectors until the dot.com
"bubble" burst.

Disagree here as well. If congress really could move that fast on a sudden
economic trend, we really would be in good shape.


Anyone who allows a multi trillion dollar debt to acumulate
against them ought to be prepared for a disappointment when they expect
payment due.

Like Social Security?

Bingo! Not what I was referring to, but that wasn't an unexpected answer. It
WILL be interesting to see how administrations handle that big hand grenade,
won't it?


One hundred forty years of deficit spending paid up in ten? All based on
five boom years? Get real!

I don't think that's accurate. We haven't been in deficit spending for 140
years, number one. Number two, projected budget surpluses only a few years
ago were in the hundreds of billions, and growing. Even with debt in the
teens of trillions, 10 years at that rate of surplus isn't far out of the
ballpark. The light was at the end of the tunnel, until the Great Giveaway.


Until Dubya decided to spread the wealth? Yeah...$300 sure bought MY
vote.....Yessir.....

Well, send it back.

We can't spend our way to prosperity anymore than we can tax out way to
it.

On that, I agree.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Brooks Hagenow" wrote in message
y.com...

Think of it this way, if a private company does a bad job, you fire
them
and
get a company that will do the job. If the government does a bad
job,
you
get to listen to senators try to justify spending more money and
raising
taxes while the problem never gets fixed.


Is ATC doing a bad job?

The same people running ATC are running the security apparatus.


Human directed ATC can't compete with automation from a probabilities,
or
capacity, standpoint. Besides that Steve, he is refering to firing
Contractors. Eventually less people will be needed to control the sky
and
Contractors are a lot easier to get rid of than Civil Service.

Problem there is contractors have little incentive to do well UNLESS there
are long-term probabilities.

The incintive is getting paid. Any changover will take years to complete
and in the interum there is enough incintive to do a tedious boring job, for
a few years. Besides that, events could lead to contractors being
Federalized.

"Chris Hoffmann" wrote in message
news

They evolved INTO democracies...then collapsed. Even Greece and Rome
started
as republics, then degenerated into democracies...just like we're doing.

Degenerated? I always thought democracy was the better of the two. At
least
it always was through all those games of Civ.

A democracy is better than a republic? Not necessarily, and not necessarily
the other way around.

" . . . democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention;
have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of
property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been
violent in their deaths." - James Madison

IOW, "democracy" is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Yet...


of countries which have reverted to dictatorship after a period of
democracy, have since gone BACK to democracy.

And what is different in their composition since the reverted to
democracy?

I don't know offhand. Germany's democracy after the third reich, I
suspect,
was different than before.
....

You might want to trace the German "republics" from the Hindenberg era (1871
or so), through the Weimar "republic", through post-WW2 and through today.


I would guess that the second incarnation of
democracy either gave more power to the individual, or more to the state,
depending on the particular case.


What am I supposed to be agreeing with? Most people are capable of
understanding that money doesn't grow on trees.

Capable yes...dealing it with, no.

I disagree.

So they are "dealing with it"?


The trouble is having
representatives who can't or won't tell their constituents that the
well
is
dry.

When they do, they get bounced from office.

I definitely disagree.

An example of two you demostrate your position, please?

At least the time it takes for them to get bounced
needs improvement.

Look at the numbers for first term congresscritters versus "career
politicians".

Or who say that the well is dry when it isn't.
I take issue with his assertion that we're going to vote ourselves
into
debt
until we collapse under it. Not that it's untrue, but he doesn't seem
to
allow for the idea that people will eventually get wise to what
they're
doing TO THEMSELVES.

It allows for it, but tell me an instance when the "addicts" have ever
moved
to avert the inevitiable reckoning.

The American Revolution, the American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea,
Vietnam.......


Well, you got the first one right, but your context is probably wrong
(leadershipwise).

And the Repub's only milked the booming tech sectors until the dot.com
"bubble" burst.

Disagree here as well. If congress really could move that fast on a sudden
economic trend, we really would be in good shape.

Before you disagree, try to comprehend the statement. (Example of that other
government function: public schools)


Anyone who allows a multi trillion dollar debt to acumulate
against them ought to be prepared for a disappointment when they
expect
payment due.

Like Social Security?

Bingo! Not what I was referring to, but that wasn't an unexpected answer.
It
WILL be interesting to see how administrations handle that big hand
grenade,
won't it?

Look at the flack the "democracy" is producing already.

One hundred forty years of deficit spending paid up in ten? All based on
five boom years? Get real!

I don't think that's accurate. We haven't been in deficit spending for 140
years, number one.

Check how many years of the last 140 we've had deficits.

Number two, projected budget surpluses only a few years
ago were in the hundreds of billions, and growing.

You might note that these "projections" we're trashed within two years.

Even with debt in the
teens of trillions, 10 years at that rate of surplus isn't far out of the
ballpark. The light was at the end of the tunnel, until the Great
Giveaway.

Which "Great Giveaway"" The "giveaways" began over 100 years ago, so which
one are you referring to?




Until Dubya decided to spread the wealth? Yeah...$300 sure bought MY
vote.....Yessir.....

Well, send it back.

We can't spend our way to prosperity anymore than we can tax out way to
it.

On that, I agree.

Yet you belie that in your previous arguments.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

Contractors are a lot easier to get rid of than Civil Service.

Problem there is contractors have little incentive to do well UNLESS
there
are long-term probabilities.

The incintive is getting paid. Any changover will take years to complete
and in the interum there is enough incintive to do a tedious boring job,
for
a few years.

We already ahve that.

Besides that, events could lead to contractors being
Federalized.

Then we're right back where we started.

Has is worked (as mentioned) for the Postal "Service", or Amtrak, schools,
etc.?

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

Contractors are a lot easier to get rid of than Civil Service.

Problem there is contractors have little incentive to do well UNLESS
there
are long-term probabilities.

The incintive is getting paid. Any changover will take years to
complete
and in the interum there is enough incintive to do a tedious boring job,
for
a few years.

We already ahve that.

Yep, no change for the short term.

Besides that, events could lead to contractors being
Federalized.

Then we're right back where we started.

Sure, no harm if it fails.

Has is worked (as mentioned) for the Postal "Service", or Amtrak, schools,
etc.?

As I wrote, the postal service is a Federal constitutional entity and can
not be truely privatized. Amtrak has been run to intentionally lose money,
to protect their subsidy. Vouchers look to be one way we can stop public
education from creating a generation of permanent underclass citizens.

I'll leave this thread now, for the sake of rai posters.

Who stands to gain from ATC privatization?

I have seen nothing to suggest that privatizing air traffic control
services would meet any need of society. It would, however, make
SOMEBODY a bunh of money. "Philosophy" aside, I see absolutely no
benefit to privatizing ATC services - certainly not based on the
experiences of ATC privatization elsewhere.

In Australia our ATC has been 'corporatised' for several years now
and they into a 'cost minimisation/recovery' mode.,
ie. no face-to-face briefing offices, fees for IFR operations,
fees for landings at towered airports, charges for not lodging
flight-plans via the internet, and with the upcomming NAS revamp
there will be less enroute services in outback areas.
(and that's just ATC., the private airports have their own fees)

The only way a private operator will even think about running *any*
ATC system is if they can make a profit from it. This means either
recovering *all* costs from the end-users, or else by getting a subsidy
from the government.
If there are subsidies then the total cost will probably be *more*
than if the government provides the services themselves.