When is just clicking PTT an acknowledgement?

Captain,

Every
pilot/controller understands what 'no joy' means.


Uh, not, not at all. Look at my sig: I am from Germany, yet I hold a US
pilot certificate. Do you really think every foreigner would understand
that phrase? Dream on! OTOH, the correct phrase is in the book - I had
to learn it. And I did. Foreign pilots using US airspace is one reason
for standard phraseology - and a good one.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...
Captain,

Every
pilot/controller understands what 'no joy' means.


Uh, not, not at all. Look at my sig: I am from Germany, yet I hold a US
pilot certificate. Do you really think every foreigner would understand
that phrase? Dream on! OTOH, the correct phrase is in the book - I had
to learn it. And I did. Foreign pilots using US airspace is one reason
for standard phraseology - and a good one.

No offense, but if you heard a pilot telling a controller, after being
advised that he had King Air traffic 5 miles, 3 O'Clock "Skyhawk 24A,
no joy on the King Air, looking" that you wouldn't be able to figure
it out? I fly in a very heavy useage Class B airspace, with lots of
international traffic...I have heard Air France pilots (with
pronounced French accents) use that phrase before. To be honest, I'd
much prefer my student to be looking for the traffic, flying the plane
and saying 'No joy on the traffic' (if that is what he knows and has
used many times before) than to be trying to think about whether
'Negative contact', 'No contact', 'Traffic not in sight', or 'looking
for traffic' is the 'appropriate' response mandated by the AIM.
Communication is about the conveyence of ideas and information. And,
in standard flying in America, anyway, 'No Joy' is every bit as common
as what the AIM says is correct. Used it a bunch, flown with other
pilots who have used it a bunch, and never had any problem with
somebody understanding the meaning of my phrase. It conveys the
intended meaning.

I do take your point, but certain words and phrases *do* become de
facto 'standard' via their use. Go to any airport with heavy training
activity, and you will hear pilots, when queried about what approach
they would like to do next say they'd like to 'Shoot the VOR 18', or
'Shoot the ILS to the published missed'. The word 'shoot' is nowhere
to be found in the FAA pilot/controller glossary. Would you understand
the meaning? I've heard plenty if airline pilot say things like 'We'll
take the visual for 18L, please'. That's probably 'nonstandard'. I'm
not sure...can't find the 'standard' call in the glossary or the AIM.
But I doubt any controller would misunderstand that statement, just as
I doubt any controller would not understand 'No joy on the King Air'.

It's about common sense. There are issues that affect safety, and
there are issues that tend to be nothing more than about being
'right'. On the internet, far more debates seem to be about the latter
than about the former. In terms of radio communications, I don't think
'non-standard' communications like 'no joy', 'shoot the approach' or
having an approach controller tell the sector about the score of a big
game (clearly not in the book, but has happened more than once to me)
has anything to do with safety. There are much bigger issues to worry
about than whether I should say 'Roger, right turn 220 to join' or
'Affirmative, right turn 220 to intercept the localizer' or 'Right
turn 220 degrees to the localizer' is 'technically' the right phrase.
If it communicates the meaning, then it has done its job. We can't
memorize every 'correct' phrase for every single situation. Common
sense will be required. And if applied, I don't think this is any kind
of real problem.

Cheers,

Cap

Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...

Uh, not, not at all. Look at my sig: I am from Germany, yet I hold a US
pilot certificate.

Interesting - I am curious why? Costs? Living in the US? Originally from US?

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
om...
Thomas Borchert wrote in message
...

Uh, not, not at all. Look at my sig: I am from Germany, yet I hold a US
pilot certificate.

Interesting - I am curious why? Costs? Living in the US? Originally
from US?

-Nathan

Could it be that it is about three times as much to get a German ticket?

Same with ground (driver's) tickets. We had a German exchange student that
was not allowed to drive while here, but a couple weeks before he was to go
back, we taught him to drive, and got his license. Almost free. Cost of a
couple K, over there.
--
Jim in NC

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
Thomas Borchert wrote in message
...
Captain,

Every
pilot/controller understands what 'no joy' means.


Uh, not, not at all. Look at my sig: I am from Germany, yet I hold a US
pilot certificate. Do you really think every foreigner would understand
that phrase? Dream on! OTOH, the correct phrase is in the book - I had
to learn it. And I did. Foreign pilots using US airspace is one reason
for standard phraseology - and a good one.

No offense, but if you heard a pilot telling a controller, after being
advised that he had King Air traffic 5 miles, 3 O'Clock "Skyhawk 24A,
no joy on the King Air, looking" that you wouldn't be able to figure
it out? I fly in a very heavy useage Class B airspace, with lots of
international traffic...I have heard Air France pilots (with
pronounced French accents) use that phrase before. To be honest, I'd
much prefer my student to be looking for the traffic, flying the plane
and saying 'No joy on the traffic' (if that is what he knows and has
used many times before) than to be trying to think about whether
'Negative contact', 'No contact', 'Traffic not in sight', or 'looking
for traffic' is the 'appropriate' response mandated by the AIM.
Communication is about the conveyence of ideas and information. And,
in standard flying in America, anyway, 'No Joy' is every bit as common
as what the AIM says is correct. Used it a bunch, flown with other
pilots who have used it a bunch, and never had any problem with
somebody understanding the meaning of my phrase. It conveys the
intended meaning.

What you say is absolutely true. Until a near mid-air causes your recorded
conversation to become an item of interest at your hearing.
Then you would have been better off if you had used standard terminology so
the ATC toad can't put the blame on you for any misunderstanding that caused
a problem

I have a good friend who used to use phrases like "Barker 69 coming at you
at 350" when contacting a new center and establishing contact
at FL 350. He used many other non-standard phrases he thought were cute.
He failed to make a descent crossing with a near mid-air and at his hearing
they played the tapes of all his conversations with center. He admitted
later that, even to himself, his terminology sounded flippant and presented
a picture of a "playboy" flying airplanes. He ended up with 2 weeks "on the
beach" without pay.


I do take your point, but certain words and phrases *do* become de
facto 'standard' via their use. Go to any airport with heavy training
activity, and you will hear pilots, when queried about what approach
they would like to do next say they'd like to 'Shoot the VOR 18', or
'Shoot the ILS to the published missed'. The word 'shoot' is nowhere
to be found in the FAA pilot/controller glossary. Would you understand
the meaning? I've heard plenty if airline pilot say things like 'We'll
take the visual for 18L, please'. That's probably 'nonstandard'. I'm
not sure...can't find the 'standard' call in the glossary or the AIM.
But I doubt any controller would misunderstand that statement, just as
I doubt any controller would not understand 'No joy on the King Air'.

It's about common sense. There are issues that affect safety, and
there are issues that tend to be nothing more than about being
'right'. On the internet, far more debates seem to be about the latter
than about the former. In terms of radio communications, I don't think
'non-standard' communications like 'no joy', 'shoot the approach' or
having an approach controller tell the sector about the score of a big
game (clearly not in the book, but has happened more than once to me)
has anything to do with safety. There are much bigger issues to worry
about than whether I should say 'Roger, right turn 220 to join' or
'Affirmative, right turn 220 to intercept the localizer' or 'Right
turn 220 degrees to the localizer' is 'technically' the right phrase.
If it communicates the meaning, then it has done its job. We can't
memorize every 'correct' phrase for every single situation. Common
sense will be required. And if applied, I don't think this is any kind
of real problem.

Cheers,

Cap

Nathan,

why? Costs? Living in the US? Originally from US?


I got my glider and powered glider certificate here (separate here),
then started to travel to the US a lot on business and pleasure.
Managed to squeeze in the training for the ASEL certificate, got it and
converted it to a German ASEL license. This was more cost effective,
too. I still fly in both countries - in the US whenever I get a chance.
It's just so much cheaper, and the scenery in most places I need to
travel to is hard to match. Next is Scottsdale, AZ, in February.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)