What having a sky marshal really means

On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:36:17 -0800 "C J Campbell" wrote:

All those people who worry about explosive decompression, innocent
bystanders getting shot, etc., are missing the point.


Do the sky marshals guard every emergency exit? What would happen if a
terrorist opened and emergency hatch at 36,000 ft? Can they be opened at all
when the plane is at altitude?

The new backscatter xray machines can see pretty much see everything. So
I'd have to suspend disbelief to think your scenario could play out.

Are you saying that you think a gun and/or bomb could be gotten on board
somehow? You scenario seems to rest on that premise.



R. Hubbell




If a sky marshal (or pilot, for that matter) really has to get into a fight
with a terrorist, odds are you are going to lose the airplane. Either the
terrorist will set off a bomb or the aircraft will be so damaged during the
fight that it will crash.

This is still better odds of survival for the passengers and crew than
simply shooting down the hijacked aircraft, which the military will scramble
to do the moment that somebody tries to take over the airplane. The sky
marshal has only a very limited time to regain control. Otherwise the jet
will be shot down, no questions asked. So whatever the marshal can do, at
whatever cost, is better than the alternative.

Either alternative is better than letting a terrorist take control of an
aircraft and fly it into a crowd of people or some valuable object.

I would think that a pilot on a threatened aircraft would gradually reduce
the cabin pressure enough to cause the passengers to pass out. This could be
done in less time than it would probably take to break through the cockpit
door. The bad guys probably would not even notice and might even experience
a moment of euphoria. Once the passenger cabin is properly subdued the
pilots could make their way back and give oxygen to the sky marshals, disarm
the terrorists, and guarantee that control would be maintained after
everybody wakes up while the airplane is descending to land.

This last alternative would still be very dangerous. The terrorists might
still set off a bomb, either before they pass out or after they wake up. The
oxygen masks dropping in the cabin would might tip them off to what was
happening, although the masks sometimes deploy during a hijacking anyway.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.

In article fIFJb.99695$pY.17255@fed1read04,
R. Hubbell wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:36:17 -0800 "C J Campbell"
wrote:

All those people who worry about explosive decompression, innocent
bystanders getting shot, etc., are missing the point.


Do the sky marshals guard every emergency exit? What would happen if a
terrorist opened and emergency hatch at 36,000 ft? Can they be opened at all
when the plane is at altitude?

he may kill himself and some unbelted passenger, but the plane would be
pretty much unharmed... I dont really think it would crash unless
other factor help (such as being just taking off or about to land...)





--
Eduardo Kaftanski |
| Freedom's just another word
http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to loose.
|

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:fIFJb.99695$pY.17255@fed1read04...
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:36:17 -0800 "C J Campbell"
wrote:

All those people who worry about explosive decompression, innocent
bystanders getting shot, etc., are missing the point.


Do the sky marshals guard every emergency exit? What would happen if a
terrorist opened and emergency hatch at 36,000 ft? Can they be opened at all
when the plane is at altitude?


To further elaborate on other's replys- the emergency exit is larger than the
opening it fills, so it must be pulled inwards in order to open. With a
conservative 7psi cabin differential and a 36x36" opening, someone would have to
overcome nearly 10,000 lbs of force holding the door shut.

The new backscatter xray machines can see pretty much see everything. So
I'd have to suspend disbelief to think your scenario could play out.

Are you saying that you think a gun and/or bomb could be gotten on board
somehow? You scenario seems to rest on that premise.


The new x-ray machines are great. But they don't have a "gun/bomb/knife" alarm
on them. They still require as screener to watch and pick out the weapons. You
have thousands and thousands of bags being scanned a day, and a screener can go
his or her entire career without seeing ONE weapon. This is a very difficult
task to approach from a vigilance standpoint, and it is NOT inconcievable that a
Bad Guy could sneak something through.

Look at how many people are able to accidently get guns and knives through
security.


R. Hubbell




If a sky marshal (or pilot, for that matter) really has to get into a fight
with a terrorist, odds are you are going to lose the airplane. Either the
terrorist will set off a bomb or the aircraft will be so damaged during the
fight that it will crash.

This is still better odds of survival for the passengers and crew than
simply shooting down the hijacked aircraft, which the military will scramble
to do the moment that somebody tries to take over the airplane. The sky
marshal has only a very limited time to regain control. Otherwise the jet
will be shot down, no questions asked. So whatever the marshal can do, at
whatever cost, is better than the alternative.

Either alternative is better than letting a terrorist take control of an
aircraft and fly it into a crowd of people or some valuable object.

I would think that a pilot on a threatened aircraft would gradually reduce
the cabin pressure enough to cause the passengers to pass out. This could be
done in less time than it would probably take to break through the cockpit
door. The bad guys probably would not even notice and might even experience
a moment of euphoria. Once the passenger cabin is properly subdued the
pilots could make their way back and give oxygen to the sky marshals, disarm
the terrorists, and guarantee that control would be maintained after
everybody wakes up while the airplane is descending to land.

This last alternative would still be very dangerous. The terrorists might
still set off a bomb, either before they pass out or after they wake up. The
oxygen masks dropping in the cabin would might tip them off to what was
happening, although the masks sometimes deploy during a hijacking anyway.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.

No, you cannot open the cabin doors with the plane pressurized...
Shooting holes through the skin of the airframe will not cause explosive
decompression, it will just add some more airbleeds to what is designed to
be there, and to the inevitable leaky door seals, loose rivets, etc... If
you shoot enough holes (lots and lots) then cabin pressure will finally sag
off as the escaping air flow exceeds what the engines can pump into the
plane ...

Even if the whacko(s) succeed in completely blowing out some windows and
decompressing the airplane, they are in the same boat with the passengers,
being tied to an oxygen mask and unable to invade the cockpit - that's a
lose-lose scenario for them...

A weapon getting on board will likely come inside the food cart, be stashed
by a janitor, etc., rather than with a boarding passenger... Secondly, a
single gun/knife, or even a couple, will not take over the aircraft now that
passengers know that letting the whacko(s) get into the cockpit means a sure
death...
Cargo planes are a far more likely target for whackos now than heavily
defended passenger planes...

Denny

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message news:fIFJb.99695$pY.17255@fed1read04...
... The new backscatter xray machines can see pretty much see everything. So
I'd have to suspend disbelief to think your scenario could play out.

Are you saying that you think a gun and/or bomb could be gotten on board
somehow? You scenario seems to rest on that premise.

Your assumption is that ALL luggage, cargo, and supplies for the plane
are xrayed with the new machines. In fact, reports have shown that
only part of the luggage (more carryon is examined), little of the
cargo, and almost none of the supplies are xrayed. And some of that
stuff that is xrayed is using the older machines.

So yes it's quite feasible. Witness the student recently who had to
finally tell the FAA of the stuff he'd hidden on several SW air
flights much earlier.

The information on this is available through regular news outlets, but
like always we just have to work a little to distinguish between real
information and commentator opinion.

-Malcolm Teas

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:fIFJb.99695$pY.17255@fed1read04...

Do the sky marshals guard every emergency exit? What would happen if a
terrorist opened and emergency hatch at 36,000 ft? Can they be opened at
all
when the plane is at altitude?


Well, if they can be opened at altitude, the terrorist would be the first to
depart. So what would his purpose be in opening one?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...



Do the sky marshals guard every emergency exit? What would happen if a
terrorist opened and emergency hatch at 36,000 ft? Can they be opened at
all
when the plane is at altitude?


Well, if they can be opened at altitude, the terrorist would be the first to
depart. So what would his purpose be in opening one?

You don't think the 9/11 hijackers weren't willing to die for the cause?

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

You don't think the 9/11 hijackers weren't willing to die for the cause?


I do. But what cause would a terrorist be dying for by opening an emergency
hatch?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net...

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

You don't think the 9/11 hijackers weren't willing to die for the cause?


I do. But what cause would a terrorist be dying for by opening an emergency
hatch?

Causing terror? That's what they do.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

Causing terror? That's what they do.


That's a pretty small bit of terror to die for.