![]() |
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
I never did formation acro in the Pitts, but I talked about it many times
with Art Scholl. I have however flown formation acro in both similar and dissimilar aircraft using P51's and a P51/F8F pair. Art considered formation acro in the Pitts as a common problem for all bipes, that being a high potential for loss of sight in close. It's dicey in tight, and that's basically where you want to be for acro, as the lag time between lead and wing can be a real killer. There's no substitute for working in as a team when it comes to this issue, and if you're taking it in slowly together; that's the way to do it. Right off the bat I'll tell you several things. Radio communication is PARAMOUNT. The instant you lose it, you need a preplanned exit. The Thunderbirds have a "go exploded" preplan on call by the lead; or a wing if lead is the cause; also if no transmission from lead for a briefed time period during a maneuver. Radio is CRITICAL to flight safety in formation acro. On position; the best unfortunately for acro is in fairly tight, as there can be absolutely NO lag between lead's stick and wings'. If you are waiting for lead to move, it's too late. ANY lag will throw you outside. Another thing. Normal echelon acro in a low wing fighter would normally be back about 55 degrees stepped down, and in position where the tail numbers could be read easily. This is very similar to the old fighting wing. The Pitts will have to be held in flatter due to the upper wing panel. You'll have to experiment with this. I would suggest you fly ALL maneuvers that involve roll (turn) AWAY from the wing; in other words (turn away rather than turn into the wing) Turns into involve some power and positioning problems that could get hairy in a Pitts. On positioning; I've found the Thunderbird/Blue Angels approach to this issue to be the best. They develop what is called a "paint" for each maneuver. It naturally varies between wings and slot, but in your case, you only have a wing "paint" to develop. What you do is establish a sight line from your normal seated position from some spot on your airplane (I used my canopy bow a lot for this) directly to some chosen spot on the lead's airplane, and you KEEP IT IN THAT EXACT POSITION come hell or high water. This means that in effect, if you're flying the wing position, you are literally flying the lead's airplane. When he moves, you move. You keep the line between the paint and the spot on your airplane at all times. This is called relative positioning. This also requires lead giving wing a specific cadence on the radio that NEVER CHANGES on both the preparation call for the maneuver, AND the execution call. For example; lead will call " Ready.......going barrel roll left............now........" What's indicative here is the SPACING between the words "left" and "now". By knowing the spacing, wing can execute WITH the lead and not after lead's hands and feet have moved. This is critical for acro formation integrity. I could go on for an hour on this stuff but you'll discover it on your own I'm sure. Just remember; lead's job is SMOOTHNESS and GROUND PROXIMITY . Lead has to leave wing with a little extra g and a little extra power. This also is critical. If lead maxes his airplane, wing doesn't have what he needs to hang in there. Lead MUST give wing enough extra to maintain position. Oh well, you'll get it I'm sure. If there's anything at all I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask. One thing Shawn; I'm fairly certain that you'll find that in the Pitts, you are going to be flying a flatter echelon and a bit wider out than I would be doing with a low wing fighter. This will mean an even tighter execution window between wing and lead. The radio procedure you two develop between you that establishes the cadence I'm talking about will be VERY important to you with a wing out that far and being flat like that. Work on these radio calls till they are so second nature you both could be blindfolded; make a prep, hesitate and execute call and bang your hands down on a table at exactly the same time together. When you two can do that twenty times with no difference in sound when your hands hit the table; you're ready to BEGIN practicing formation acro as a demonstration team! Dudley "ShawnD2112" wrote in message ... You bet, Dudley, on both counts. To date all we've really done is trade lead and wing, mostly echelon right, practicing straight and level station-keeping, gentle turns left/right, gentle climbs and decents. It's still hard enough keeping in some kind of reasonable position that anything more challenging is still for the future. We still fall out of turns once in a while, as you'd imagine. Just out of curiousity, do you have any formation time in Pitts Specials? If so, what do you use as visual references in echelon to keep your position? We've gotten some conflicting advice about the best position. Shawn "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message hlink.net... Best of luck down there and have a great time. Hope all goes well with what you're planning for 05. One thing though Shawn; don't get too close to those Cape Buffs down there. I understand that if they get mad at you for some reason or other, they can take do great harm to a Pitts!!! :-)) Have fun and let me know how you make out with your show will you? All the best as always, Dudley "ShawnD2112" wrote in message ... Thanks for the heads up on this one, Dudley. Oddly enough, am going on vacation to Capetown on Sat for two weeks. Have asked about two copies being sent to my hotel, one for me, one for my flying partner. We're just starting out on some basic station keeping formation and hope to be able to put together a small show routine for Summer 05 or so. Lots of work and lots to learn in the meantime, but we've had a blast doing what little we've done so far. Shawn Pitts S-1D G-BKVP "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message news ![]() "Snowbird" wrote in message om... "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message thlink.net... For those of you interested in air shows, both military and civilian, , and whose interest goes WAY beyond the norm and into the very guts of the subject; I'd like to announce that the consummate book on this subject "Zero Error Margin; Airshow Display Flying Analyzed " has just been released and is now available. ... Wow, this is saying a lot, coming from you. Is it anything the 'lay pilot' could appreciate, or do you think one has to be an aerobatic pilot or an airshow performer to appreciate it? Cheers, Sydney The book will probably end up being the finest piece ever done on this subject. In fact, considering it's scope, it should stand alone now as unique. It will easily qualify as legally acceptable reference material when expert opinion has to be verified concerning the issues dealt with in the book. I will have the finished book in my hands next week. As of now, I only have the material that I've been working on with Col Barker over the past two years, and individual chapters sent to me to be proofed, but from what I've seen so far, for anyone having any interest at all in the safety issues that surround the air show venue, this book will be a must have! The collected group gathered together to do this work are in my opinion, the best available in the world today. Just in my own small group contributing, the book involved several Thunderbird alumni, including an ex team lead. I really can't say what the interest will be for the average private pilot as it relates to flying. Naturally, the collective professional talent gathered to do this project concentrated heavily on the low level aerobatic demonstration aspect of handling an airplane; and many makes and types used for this purpose are covered in textbook form. But if there's an interest in learning how extremely high performance airplanes are handled professionally by people who are the best in the world at doing this; I would say there's a lot that can be learned and applied to making everyday flying safer. On the historical end, the accident data base on air shows included in the book is second to none. It lists every major air show related accident of consequence over several decades. Researchers will have a field day reading what the official reports said, then being privy to what the best pilots in the world involved with the same kind of flying had to say for the book that ADD's to those reports. For the enthusiast, the book should be a gold mine of first hand reporting and research on their subject of interest. To answer your question honestly Snow, it all depends on the interest area of the hypothetical "lay pilot" you describe. My recommendation would be to purchase this book if you have any interest at all in airshows, or how high performance airplanes are flown by people who know high performance airplanes. You'll get a real inside look at how these pilots think and act under all kinds of conditions. I would say that by the time he/she finishes reading this book, the average "lay pilot" should come away with at least a few things they might want to change in the way they approach what they do in the air :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Dudley,
Great tips! Thanks loads. I like the idea of the synchro radio calls and the table. With power and g, we've kept everything pretty much one g so far and we both recognize we're a long way from pulling any. As for power, when leading, we each throttle back to give us about 120 mph. My plane is faster than Al's (better prop) so he needs a lot more power margin when he's on my wing than I do on his. 120 mph (against a cruise of 145 and full speed of 180) seems a bit slow but is fast enough to still have good control response and plenty of surplus power. It gives me about 2100 RPM against a 2700 red line, 2400 cruise. For positioning, we've been maintaining about what you describe; something that feels like 45 degrees but is probably a little bit more, and nearly level. When I'm looking at him, I try to bisect his upper wing through it's own trailing edge. That puts me a couple of inches higher but reduces the risk of masking with my own upper wing. (If anyone has anything to add to that, please let me know). It's also good because it's exact and very apparent when you're just a little bit above or below. Also rate of vertical relative movement is very evident. As for horizontal keeping, I haven't yet figured out the sight picture that I need. I'm trying to use the technique you describe (lock a point on my plane onto his), but I've gotten conflicting advice on best position and haven't been able to stay in one place long enough to get a point; it's more like a zone. At the moment, as long as his airplane is within the upper triangle of my wires, that's about as good as I can get and it seems to be about the right angle. We're keeping it relatively short, too. Five minutes of keeping on someone's wing is bloody hard work! I have to remind my self to relax. How soon before I stop leaning forward in the cockpit? :-) Anyway, will be off the net after tomorrow for a couple of weeks but plan to fly again in mid-Feb. I'll let you know how I get on with the book and our next sortie. Cheers for the help! Shawn "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message . net... I never did formation acro in the Pitts, but I talked about it many times with Art Scholl. I have however flown formation acro in both similar and dissimilar aircraft using P51's and a P51/F8F pair. Art considered formation acro in the Pitts as a common problem for all bipes, that being a high potential for loss of sight in close. It's dicey in tight, and that's basically where you want to be for acro, as the lag time between lead and wing can be a real killer. There's no substitute for working in as a team when it comes to this issue, and if you're taking it in slowly together; that's the way to do it. Right off the bat I'll tell you several things. Radio communication is PARAMOUNT. The instant you lose it, you need a preplanned exit. The Thunderbirds have a "go exploded" preplan on call by the lead; or a wing if lead is the cause; also if no transmission from lead for a briefed time period during a maneuver. Radio is CRITICAL to flight safety in formation acro. On position; the best unfortunately for acro is in fairly tight, as there can be absolutely NO lag between lead's stick and wings'. If you are waiting for lead to move, it's too late. ANY lag will throw you outside. Another thing. Normal echelon acro in a low wing fighter would normally be back about 55 degrees stepped down, and in position where the tail numbers could be read easily. This is very similar to the old fighting wing. The Pitts will have to be held in flatter due to the upper wing panel. You'll have to experiment with this. I would suggest you fly ALL maneuvers that involve roll (turn) AWAY from the wing; in other words (turn away rather than turn into the wing) Turns into involve some power and positioning problems that could get hairy in a Pitts. On positioning; I've found the Thunderbird/Blue Angels approach to this issue to be the best. They develop what is called a "paint" for each maneuver. It naturally varies between wings and slot, but in your case, you only have a wing "paint" to develop. What you do is establish a sight line from your normal seated position from some spot on your airplane (I used my canopy bow a lot for this) directly to some chosen spot on the lead's airplane, and you KEEP IT IN THAT EXACT POSITION come hell or high water. This means that in effect, if you're flying the wing position, you are literally flying the lead's airplane. When he moves, you move. You keep the line between the paint and the spot on your airplane at all times. This is called relative positioning. This also requires lead giving wing a specific cadence on the radio that NEVER CHANGES on both the preparation call for the maneuver, AND the execution call. For example; lead will call " Ready.......going barrel roll left............now........" What's indicative here is the SPACING between the words "left" and "now". By knowing the spacing, wing can execute WITH the lead and not after lead's hands and feet have moved. This is critical for acro formation integrity. I could go on for an hour on this stuff but you'll discover it on your own I'm sure. Just remember; lead's job is SMOOTHNESS and GROUND PROXIMITY . Lead has to leave wing with a little extra g and a little extra power. This also is critical. If lead maxes his airplane, wing doesn't have what he needs to hang in there. Lead MUST give wing enough extra to maintain position. Oh well, you'll get it I'm sure. If there's anything at all I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask. One thing Shawn; I'm fairly certain that you'll find that in the Pitts, you are going to be flying a flatter echelon and a bit wider out than I would be doing with a low wing fighter. This will mean an even tighter execution window between wing and lead. The radio procedure you two develop between you that establishes the cadence I'm talking about will be VERY important to you with a wing out that far and being flat like that. Work on these radio calls till they are so second nature you both could be blindfolded; make a prep, hesitate and execute call and bang your hands down on a table at exactly the same time together. When you two can do that twenty times with no difference in sound when your hands hit the table; you're ready to BEGIN practicing formation acro as a demonstration team! Dudley "ShawnD2112" wrote in message ... You bet, Dudley, on both counts. To date all we've really done is trade lead and wing, mostly echelon right, practicing straight and level station-keeping, gentle turns left/right, gentle climbs and decents. It's still hard enough keeping in some kind of reasonable position that anything more challenging is still for the future. We still fall out of turns once in a while, as you'd imagine. Just out of curiousity, do you have any formation time in Pitts Specials? If so, what do you use as visual references in echelon to keep your position? We've gotten some conflicting advice about the best position. Shawn "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message hlink.net... Best of luck down there and have a great time. Hope all goes well with what you're planning for 05. One thing though Shawn; don't get too close to those Cape Buffs down there. I understand that if they get mad at you for some reason or other, they can take do great harm to a Pitts!!! :-)) Have fun and let me know how you make out with your show will you? All the best as always, Dudley "ShawnD2112" wrote in message ... Thanks for the heads up on this one, Dudley. Oddly enough, am going on vacation to Capetown on Sat for two weeks. Have asked about two copies being sent to my hotel, one for me, one for my flying partner. We're just starting out on some basic station keeping formation and hope to be able to put together a small show routine for Summer 05 or so. Lots of work and lots to learn in the meantime, but we've had a blast doing what little we've done so far. Shawn Pitts S-1D G-BKVP "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message news ![]() "Snowbird" wrote in message om... "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message thlink.net... For those of you interested in air shows, both military and civilian, , and whose interest goes WAY beyond the norm and into the very guts of the subject; I'd like to announce that the consummate book on this subject "Zero Error Margin; Airshow Display Flying Analyzed " has just been released and is now available. ... Wow, this is saying a lot, coming from you. Is it anything the 'lay pilot' could appreciate, or do you think one has to be an aerobatic pilot or an airshow performer to appreciate it? Cheers, Sydney The book will probably end up being the finest piece ever done on this subject. In fact, considering it's scope, it should stand alone now as unique. It will easily qualify as legally acceptable reference material when expert opinion has to be verified concerning the issues dealt with in the book. I will have the finished book in my hands next week. As of now, I only have the material that I've been working on with Col Barker over the past two years, and individual chapters sent to me to be proofed, but from what I've seen so far, for anyone having any interest at all in the safety issues that surround the air show venue, this book will be a must have! The collected group gathered together to do this work are in my opinion, the best available in the world today. Just in my own small group contributing, the book involved several Thunderbird alumni, including an ex team lead. I really can't say what the interest will be for the average private pilot as it relates to flying. Naturally, the collective professional talent gathered to do this project concentrated heavily on the low level aerobatic demonstration aspect of handling an airplane; and many makes and types used for this purpose are covered in textbook form. But if there's an interest in learning how extremely high performance airplanes are handled professionally by people who are the best in the world at doing this; I would say there's a lot that can be learned and applied to making everyday flying safer. On the historical end, the accident data base on air shows included in the book is second to none. It lists every major air show related accident of consequence over several decades. Researchers will have a field day reading what the official reports said, then being privy to what the best pilots in the world involved with the same kind of flying had to say for the book that ADD's to those reports. For the enthusiast, the book should be a gold mine of first hand reporting and research on their subject of interest. To answer your question honestly Snow, it all depends on the interest area of the hypothetical "lay pilot" you describe. My recommendation would be to purchase this book if you have any interest at all in airshows, or how high performance airplanes are flown by people who know high performance airplanes. You'll get a real inside look at how these pilots think and act under all kinds of conditions. I would say that by the time he/she finishes reading this book, the average "lay pilot" should come away with at least a few things they might want to change in the way they approach what they do in the air :-) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
rec.aviation.aerobatics FAQ | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | December 1st 03 06:27 AM |
rec.aviation.aerobatics FAQ | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | November 1st 03 06:27 AM |
rec.aviation.aerobatics FAQ | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | October 1st 03 07:27 AM |
rec.aviation.aerobatics FAQ | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | September 1st 03 07:27 AM |
rec.aviation.aerobatics FAQ | Dr. Guenther Eichhorn | Aerobatics | 0 | August 1st 03 07:27 AM |