non-towered airport question

"Harry Gordon" wrote in message ...
Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change.

What if others are still using the "original" runway?

If I want to do some x-wind landing practice on a different runway from the
preferred, I will clearly announce my intentions

Not meaning to pick, just curious: do you really announce
"Pepsi County traffic, Cessna 12345 entering left downwind
for 34 for crosswind landing practice" or some such?

My personal tick on UNICOM is not being able to make necessary
traffic calls in a timely manner because someone is taking up
the frequency with a lengthy announcement full of unnecessary
information. Of course, students gotta learn, but it's often
not students I hear doing it.

Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Just to point out that your outside scanning should be IMHO
as intense as you can make it at all times. You never know when
a NORDO aircraft is going to perceive an operational advantage
in using a different runway than you prefer, at any time. You
also never know when someone is going to say one thing and show
up somewhere else. I have to admit I'm usually not directionally
challenged but I've been known to make directionally-challenged
radio calls myself.

Also, if the airport is busy on that particular day, I will defer my
practices until another time.

Well, how do you define busy? One other aircraft? Two? Four?
Seven?

Cheers,
Sydney

Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will
be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change.

What if others are still using the "original" runway?

One of the "problems" with posting to newsgroups is if you leave something
out, it is automatically assumed the writer doesn't do it :-). Thus far,
when that situation has occurred, and the other aircraft haven't made the
adjustment, I will broadcast a CTAF message about the wind/runway change.
Thus far the other aircraft have all followed suit and adjusted to the new
runway. I haven't had the "opportunity" of someone refusing to change.


If I want to do some x-wind landing practice on a different runway from
the
preferred, I will clearly announce my intentions

Not meaning to pick, just curious: do you really announce
"Pepsi County traffic, Cessna 12345 entering left downwind
for 34 for crosswind landing practice" or some such?

Yes. That is exactly what I do when 34 is NOT the desired runway for the
given wind direction. I would rather use an extra 2 seconds of air time and
avoid a potiential problem.


My personal tick on UNICOM is not being able to make necessary
traffic calls in a timely manner because someone is taking up
the frequency with a lengthy announcement full of unnecessary
information. Of course, students gotta learn, but it's often
not students I hear doing it.

Where I fly, the radio "problems" I have encountered isn't so much a long
winded pilot but having to put up with the radio traffic coming from other
uncontrolled airports :-(.

About the only time I get frustrated with the radio traffic is going into a
Class-C airspace and the controllers are so busy I have to go into a
"holding pattern" while waiting to establish communications with them.


Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Just to point out that your outside scanning should be IMHO
as intense as you can make it at all times.

See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)). One day, I had a
C172 take the runway for departure AFTER I had announced turning final for
that runway. I had to do a go-around. Trust me, I am ALWAYS watching. :-)

You never know when
a NORDO aircraft is going to perceive an operational advantage
in using a different runway than you prefer, at any time. You
also never know when someone is going to say one thing and show
up somewhere else. I have to admit I'm usually not directionally
challenged but I've been known to make directionally-challenged
radio calls myself.

You too??? :-) At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger now. I still have
a hard time deciding if I am approaching from the S.E., N.W., S.W., etc.


Also, if the airport is busy on that particular day, I will defer my
practices until another time.

Well, how do you define busy? One other aircraft? Two? Four?
Seven?

That is a hard question to answer. I just depends on what the other aircraft
are doing. I have left the area with 2 in the pattern and have stayed with
as many as 5. But, if it is "busy" I will not deviate from the pattern that
the others are using. When I was a student, our practice area wasn't too far
from the uncontrolled airport we would practice our landings/TOs. What I
would do is fly over to the practice area for some other practice and then
return back to the airport when the other aircraft went home.

Sydney, where to you fligh out of primarily?

Happy flying,

Harry

"Harry Gordon" wrote in message ...
Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will
be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change.

What if others are still using the "original" runway?

One of the "problems" with posting to newsgroups is if you leave something
out, it is automatically assumed the writer doesn't do it :-). Thus far,
when that situation has occurred, and the other aircraft haven't made the
adjustment, I will broadcast a CTAF message about the wind/runway change.

Perhaps I'm not clear enough on the scenario I'm thinking of.
I'm not thinking of you being the guy "established" in the pattern,
but rather of the following scenario:

You are approaching a non-towered airport. There are several
aircraft in the pattern for runway 18, happily making circuits.
You observe that the wind actually favors runway 27.

Are you saying you approach the airport with an announcement
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, the wind appears to favor runway
27, so that should be the active runway now" or something to that
effect (what exactly would you say?) and so far, everyone just
changes to runway 27 and you join them?

Or are you saying you'd broadcast that you're landing on 27 because
that's the runway the wind favors, and everyone else would break off
their pattern and follow you?

Yes. That is exactly what I do when 34 is NOT the desired runway for the
given wind direction. I would rather use an extra 2 seconds of air time and
avoid a potiential problem.

OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?

Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Just to point out that your outside scanning should be IMHO
as intense as you can make it at all times.

See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)).

Um, Harry -- no offense intended here, but when you say "my
outside scanning becomes much more intense in this situation",
I don't think there's much reading between the lines going on
on my part. Perhaps you need to adjust what you write, to
better match what you mean?

My point is, I don't think it's a situation calling for a
beyond-normal level of alertness, because it's a situation
which could always be occuring without notice.

You too??? :-) At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger now. I still have
a hard time deciding if I am approaching from the S.E., N.W., S.W., etc.

Me too. Actually I know what direction I'm approaching
from but my brain has been known to disengage before the words
emerge from my mouth "southeast--um, sorry, no, northwest--"
(and there I go, exhibiting the peeve my fingers warned us against)
It's a consistant trait of mine, I mis-speak in other walks of life.
I would make a horrible ATCS, or any other profession which had to
talk for a living!

Cheers,
Sydney

Perhaps I'm not clear enough on the scenario I'm thinking of.
I'm not thinking of you being the guy "established" in the pattern,
but rather of the following scenario:

You are approaching a non-towered airport. There are several
aircraft in the pattern for runway 18, happily making circuits.
You observe that the wind actually favors runway 27.

Are you saying you approach the airport with an announcement
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, the wind appears to favor runway
27, so that should be the active runway now" or something to that
effect (what exactly would you say?) and so far, everyone just
changes to runway 27 and you join them?

Or are you saying you'd broadcast that you're landing on 27 because
that's the runway the wind favors, and everyone else would break off
their pattern and follow you?


When I or others have announced a wind change, there has never been an issue
about switching to another runway. Communications are brief and contain the
relative information: "Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, new wind direction 250,
perferred runway now 27, Podunk."

Thus far, no one has refused to adjust their pattern to the new runway. In
fact, I have seen pilots turn their planes around on the ground and taxi to
another runway because of a wind change that was announced by another pilot.


OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?


Remember, you broadcast your position, intentions, etc., regardless of
whether or not there are other aircraft in the pattern. The reason I
broadcast my message is to eliminate the possible confusion (maybe I should
have used that word rather than "problem") over an airplane approaching the
field who has listened to AWOS, obtained the wind direction and determined
what runway they will be using. And then when they switch to CTAF have them
hear me using a different runway. It also gives them the ability to contact
me if they so desire. And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field (of course if
they are NORAD, then I can't respond to their approaching until I see them.)

Perhaps I need to say this since we don't know each other. I consider myself
a very "sky friendly" pilot. When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor mine - at
least intentionally :-). I guess I am becoming confused over whether your
challenging what I do or if you're looking for rationale for making your
flying experiences better.


See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)).

.... Perhaps you need to adjust what you write, to
better match what you mean?


Perhaps your right. Before I retired I spent over 35 years in jobs requiring
intensive writing skills, you would think that I could be a little clearer
wouldn't you? :-). I guess the problem with communicating in these
newsgroups is the fundmental principle of written/verbal communications -
know your audience and then taylor your communications to that audience.

No two people who post to this newsgroup have the same background. Everyone
is different. Some are very young and some are retired; some are fresh
students and others have tens-of-thousands of flying hours and hold every
rating in the book, not to mention those in between; some have great
communication skills, others..., well you get the idea. Added to that is the
frame-of-mind the writer/reader is in at the time the writting/reading takes
place. That frame-of-mind will determine the inflection given to words as
they are written/read (that is referred to as tone-of-font). What the reader
perceives as the "tone" may not in any way reflect that of the writer's.
Unfortunately, the definition of communications is not what is written or
said but what is perceived by the receiver to have been written or said.

I hope we're communicating. :-)

Harry

"Harry Gordon" wrote in message ...

When I or others have announced a wind change, there has never been an issue
about switching to another runway. Communications are brief and contain the
relative information: "Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, new wind direction 250,
perferred runway now 27, Podunk."

Hi Harry,

No, I'm not trying to challenge or criticize what you do, just to
understand it and how it applies to situations I'm thinking about.

I can't personally imagine that I would approach an airport where
other planes are already landing in the pattern, listen to AWOS or
look at the wind sock and decide that the wind favors a different
runway, and then make an announcement about "preferred runway now
so and so". I'm not trying to criticize what you say you do, just
to understand it. Personally for me making an announcement about
which runway is preferred to other pilots, would seem like hubris,
especially if I'm the one approaching the airport and they're
already there. I might query which runway the wind favors or
overfly to have a look for myself if there seems to be a discrepency
and I'm not willing to "go with the flow".

I've seen aircraft change which way they're taxiing on the ground.
Done it myself. It's changing direction in the pattern which is
the 'big deal' IMO, especially if the airport is R traffic one way
and L traffic the other (very common around here). If several planes
are established in the pattern for one runway, I'm not sure it's the
safest course of action for them all to switch.

OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?

Remember, you broadcast your position, intentions, etc., regardless of
whether or not there are other aircraft in the pattern. The reason I
broadcast my message is to eliminate the possible confusion (maybe I should
have used that word rather than "problem") over an airplane approaching the
field who has listened to AWOS, obtained the wind direction and determined
what runway they will be using. And then when they switch to CTAF have them
hear me using a different runway. It also gives them the ability to contact
me if they so desire.

Well, any communication gives them the ability to contact you so that
seems a moot point wrt broadcasting an explanation of what you're
doing
(do you do this on each leg, or just once per circuit?) vs simply
making standard pattern calls.

But thank you, I think I understand your concern now; you're worried
that
someone will think the AWOS is wrong and the wind favors the runway
you're
using? I'll consider that -- it may be a valid point worth a couple
words. OTOH, I really feel there are a number of valid reasons to
choose the runway which is not aligned with the wind and not all
of them lend themselves to two-word radio calls.

And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field

OK, so this answers the question I asked you earlier. You said
you would never do x-wind practice when the airport is "busy".
I asked "what do you consider busy?".

Now it looks like your answer is, you would never do crosswind
practice when there is one other aircraft in the pattern or
approaching
the airport to land. If I understand you correctly, if you're already
in the pattern, and someone else approaches the airport and
announces "wind from 300 preferred runway now 270" you would
break off your pattern and join the pattern for the other runway
and land there.

I'm not trying to criticize at all; if that's what you feel
comfortable
with, go for it. But I hope you can understand that for other people,
that may not seem too practical or even too desireable, and their
idea of what's "busy" may differ from yours.

When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor
mine - at least intentionally :-).

Well, I would say the same. But clearly I do some things differently
and see some things differently. And there are other pilots who do
and see things still differently from both of us.

I think the problem arises when some people take the attitude
that they have the book on safety and anyone who sees things
differently is "jeopardizing their safety or mine". Please note
I'm not saying I see this attitude from you in what you're writing
here, just that I see this attitude as a problem in and of itself.

Cheers,
Sydney

Good afternoon, Sydney.

I think we are both on the "same page" and if not, at least we are getting
there :-). If you go to an aviation book store, don't look for a book
authored by me - you won't find one :-).

I can't personally imagine that I would approach an airport where
other planes are already landing in the pattern, listen to AWOS or
look at the wind sock and decide that the wind favors a different
runway, and then make an announcement about "preferred runway now
so and so".

Nor would I. I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I have made that
announcement when in the pattern or on the ground and noticed the change in
the windsock and even then not before confirming the wind change with AWOS.
So far, no one that was in the pattern with me has objected to the
announcement or refused to make an adjustment. In fact, several have
responded with a quick "thank you, changing to runway XX".

......If several planes
are established in the pattern for one runway, I'm not sure it's the
safest course of action for them all to switch.

On one ocassion there were 3 of us and we all switched without any problem.
I would submit that either everyone changes or no one changes and it has
nothing to do with who noticed/announced the wind direction change; it has
to do with safety.



But thank you, I think I understand your concern now; you're worried
that
someone will think the AWOS is wrong and the wind favors the runway
you're
using? I'll consider that -- it may be a valid point worth a couple
words.

That is correct.

OTOH, I really feel there are a number of valid reasons to
choose the runway which is not aligned with the wind and not all
of them lend themselves to two-word radio calls.

Oh, absolutely. I completely agree.


And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field

OK, so this answers the question I asked you earlier. You said
you would never do x-wind practice when the airport is "busy".
I asked "what do you consider busy?".

If you got the idea that my definition of "busy" should be the universal
definition, I'm sorry I gave that impression. My definition is MY definition
and certainly subject to change given the situation. What I mean is there is
no standard or set parameters that determine when an aiport is busy. For me,
I take into consideration the number of aircraft, the types of flying being
done, the weather, and how I feel at that moment.


Now it looks like your answer is, you would never do crosswind
practice when there is one other aircraft in the pattern or
approaching
the airport to land.


If I had to use a non-preferred runway for the practice - that is correct.
When there are other aircraft in the pattern or soon will be in the pattern,
everyone has to work together or there will be a great potential for
unexpected "opportunities."


If I understand you correctly, if you're already
in the pattern, and someone else approaches the airport and
announces "wind from 300 preferred runway now 270" you would
break off your pattern and join the pattern for the other runway
and land there.

That is correct in part. I have never heard that announcment made by
someone approaching the airport. Unless they had been listening to AWOS for
a while, they wouldn't know the wind had changed. They would hear the wind
direction and then they would decide on the appropriate runway.

The announcement would be made by someone already in the pattern. And if I
were in the pattern when someone else made that announcement, I would make
the necessary adjustments in order to use the preferred runway.

Of course if a airplane was approaching the airport, listened to AWOS, and
then heard "me" say I am using runway 27 when the wind direction favors 32,
they certainly have the opportunity to contact me for clarification. If that
were to happen, I would evaluate where they are in relation to the airport,
where I am in relation to the pattern, and then either abort my pattern for
the non-preferred runway or continue with my landing and then switch to the
preferred runway. For example, if a pilot announces they are 7 miles out and
I am on my downwind, base, or final leg, I have plenty of time to make my
landing. On the other hand, if I notice a NORAD entering the downwind
pattern for the preferred runway, I will abort my pattern and adjust to the
perferred runway.


When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor
mine - at least intentionally :-).

Well, I would say the same. But clearly I do some things differently
and see some things differently. And there are other pilots who do
and see things still differently from both of us.

And that in part is what makes flying an adventure :-). Your comment is
underscored with the number of aviation "how-to" books on the market and
they are all by different authors. No, flying is not a "one size fits all."
We have parameters that we need to stay within and guidelines to help in
that endeavor. A real example of the accuracy of your comment is encounted
when you fly with different CFIs and everyone has a slightly different
approach to landing an airplane and then along comes the DE with a DIFFERENT
idea on how landings should be approached (I know...been there, done that).


I think the problem arises when some people take the attitude
that they have the book on safety and anyone who sees things
differently is "jeopardizing their safety or mine". Please note
I'm not saying I see this attitude from you in what you're writing
here, just that I see this attitude as a problem in and of itself.


True, so true.

Well, I hope we are coming to some conclusion here. I have enjoyed this
exchange of comments and views. Certainly with only 130 hours of flying I am
no "expert" on what should or shouldn't be done. But that is why I hang out
in this and the RAS newsgroup...to learn and to share. I think we all have
something to contribute; good, bad, or indifferent. :-)

I am lucky, I guess, where I do my flying. While I fly out of a Class-C
airport, most of the PP training takes place at several different
uncontrolled airports in our area. When I did my training I did it during
the week. Fortunately, there were MANY times when I was the only airplane in
the pattern. In fact, even now, the flying I do is done during the week.
It's almost like having your own private airport regardless where you go.

Happy and safe flying.

Harry

My pet peeve is the motormouth types who clog the CTAF with
personal chatter that has little or nothing to do with the
safety of flight. Some of these folks aren't even flying -
and seem to think the CTAF is a personal CB channel. The
temptation to become "voluntary NORDO" is quite strong at
the airport I have in mind.

Equally annoying is the Class C scenario in which you can't
get a word in edgewise due to the congestion on frequency.
Sometimes it is simply too many aircraft coming and going at once.
Other times there is the stuck mike or the pilot with a limited
command of English, or somebody who takes 100 words to say what
a the average person could say in ten.

David Johnson