4130 - bad news...

(Ryan Young) wrote in message om...
One solution is to normalize your own sheet - apparently it IS
possible to get tempered 4130.

Even the annealed stuff is in short supply. Last time I checked with
Dllsburg (about 10 days ago) he sad - maybe - in a month.

But I've been wondering if the solution isn't High Strength Low Alloy
(HSLA) steels. I know nothing about their weldability compared to
4130, but I do know that tons and tons of the stuff are used in cars
and industrial equipment.

This is where my wanderings have lead me. Welding could be different.

http://www.us.cbmm.com.br/english/so...il/weldabi.htm

I know most auto manufactures prohibit gas welding the stuff. MIG or
TIG is OK and brass should not be a problem as long as the temp stays
low enough. Some of the HSLA's apparantly are highly corrosion
resistant as well.

ASTM A606, A1011, A1008 and ASTM A715 are specs of some steel that
might work. Supply should not be a problem in thicknes between .020"
and .125"

http://www.ussteel.com/corp/sheet/cr/crs.htm
===========================
Leon McAtee

On 11 May 2004 18:07:52 -0700, (Leon McAtee)
wrote:

(Ryan Young) wrote in message om...
One solution is to normalize your own sheet - apparently it IS
possible to get tempered 4130.

Even the annealed stuff is in short supply. Last time I checked with
Dllsburg (about 10 days ago) he sad - maybe - in a month.

But I've been wondering if the solution isn't High Strength Low Alloy
(HSLA) steels. I know nothing about their weldability compared to
4130, but I do know that tons and tons of the stuff are used in cars
and industrial equipment.

This is where my wanderings have lead me. Welding could be different.

http://www.us.cbmm.com.br/english/so...il/weldabi.htm

I know most auto manufactures prohibit gas welding the stuff. MIG or
TIG is OK and brass should not be a problem as long as the temp stays
low enough. Some of the HSLA's apparantly are highly corrosion
resistant as well.

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. Mig and tig are acceptable if done to
specifications - spot welding is most common.

ASTM A606, A1011, A1008 and ASTM A715 are specs of some steel that
might work. Supply should not be a problem in thicknes between .020"
and .125"

http://www.ussteel.com/corp/sheet/cr/crs.htm
===========================
Leon McAtee

wrote in message
...

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.

A. By whom?
B. Where?
C. For what use?

Rich S.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 12:47:27 -0700, "Rich S."
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.

A. By whom?
B. Where?
C. For what use?

Rich S.

A - by the auto manufacturers, the autobody trade, and anyone alse
involved in the inspection/qualification of auto body repairs in
Canada and the USA.

B ANY structural body part. - which is generally where HSA steel is
used

C - for onhighway use.

wrote in message
...

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.

A. By whom?

A - by the auto manufacturers, the autobody trade, and anyone alse
involved in the inspection/qualification of auto body repairs in
Canada and the USA.

B. Where?

B ANY structural body part. - which is generally where HSA steel is used

C. For what use?

C - for onhighway use.

A. They are not my King, nor my God and I care not what they may FORBID.

B. Weren't we talking about the use of this steel in experimental airplanes?
(Actually, by "where" I meant "where in the world is such brazing "STRICTLY
FORBIDDEN" - which you answered in "A".)

C. I assume you mean in production automobiles. Unless you can tell me what
law pertains to the brazing of "high strength alloy steel components of
automotive bodies", I'm afraid I can lend little credence to your statement.
I really don't give a rat's ass what the "auto manufacturers, the autobody
trade, and anyone alse involved in the inspection/qualification of auto body
repairs in Canada and the USA." have proclaimed.

Come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone involved in the
inspection/qualification of auto body repairs. Is there such a governmental
body in Canada?

Rich S.

Rich S. wrote:

Come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone involved in the
inspection/qualification of auto body repairs.

Next time you whip out the Bondo(tm) watch out for the
guys in suits and sunglesses coming up your driveway.

Dave 'we're here to help' Hyde

"Dave Hyde" wrote in message
...
Rich S. wrote:

Come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone involved in the
inspection/qualification of auto body repairs.

Next time you whip out the Bondo(tm) watch out for the
guys in suits and sunglesses coming up your driveway.

Dave 'we're here to help' Hyde


The main reason I quit the Fire Marshal business.

Rich "I'm from the gov. . ." S.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 15:08:06 -0700, "Rich S."
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.

A. By whom?

A - by the auto manufacturers, the autobody trade, and anyone alse
involved in the inspection/qualification of auto body repairs in
Canada and the USA.

B. Where?

B ANY structural body part. - which is generally where HSA steel is used

C. For what use?

C - for onhighway use.

A. They are not my King, nor my God and I care not what they may FORBID.

B. Weren't we talking about the use of this steel in experimental airplanes?
(Actually, by "where" I meant "where in the world is such brazing "STRICTLY
FORBIDDEN" - which you answered in "A".)

C. I assume you mean in production automobiles. Unless you can tell me what
law pertains to the brazing of "high strength alloy steel components of
automotive bodies", I'm afraid I can lend little credence to your statement.
I really don't give a rat's ass what the "auto manufacturers, the autobody
trade, and anyone alse involved in the inspection/qualification of auto body
repairs in Canada and the USA." have proclaimed.


You may not give a rat's ass, but the high strength alloy steel sure
does. It is a HEAT TREATED steel, and it looses a very large
percentage of it's strength when heated to red hot - which is a
definite requirement for brazing.

Come to think of it, I have never heard of anyone involved in the
inspection/qualification of auto body repairs. Is there such a governmental
body in Canada?


Keep the useless government out of it.
Trade groups like the SCRS, ASTM, APMA, ASE.AAC, ABPA, ASBE, and ACA,
along with the NHTSA all have something to say about it.

Specifically, look at:
http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/ahss_r...ase2_study.pdf

This is LOW ALLOY steel - as compared to 4130,
I would not want to see it used, particularly by amatures, in
construction of aircraft with welding, or worse yet, brazing, involved
in the construction.
Rich S.

"Rich S." wrote in message ...
wrote in message
...

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN.

I know that flame welding of HSLA's is verbotten by the Mfg's, some
state laws and common "good practice" but as far as I know brazing is
OK, though I don't know why anyone would want to when MIG is so quick
and clean. In fact I know that at least one US Mfg. MIGed some
pannels (primary structure)with brass wire, and probably still does.
Also from what I have been reading this "good practice" of MIGing HSLA
may be based on poor science. Seems that the common alloy used by
most autobody shops in their MIG's creates some poor welds due to
migration of the niobium and vandamanium in the HSLA into the HAZ
resulting in the potential for cracking. But...............

B. Weren't we talking about the use of this steel in experimental airplanes?
(Actually, by "where" I meant "where in the world is such brazing "STRICTLY
FORBIDDEN" - which you answered in "A".)

Lets get back to finding a replacement for the 4130 used in
homebuilding. Then we can hash out the best way to fuse it for our
uses.

Is something like an HSLA mmanfactured to ASTM A606 (type 2 or
type4)standard suitable for aircraft parts formerally made of 4130?
Even if it isn't a 100% substitute for 4130 in a closely designed
structure, would it be acceptable for aircraft use if the part were
redesigned (upsized one size?)to better match the HSLA's strength? Is
sheet in thicknesses used by homebuilders available in this alloy?
For a reasonable price?
========================
Leon McAtee

What a crock of ****!




I know most auto manufactures prohibit gas welding the stuff. MIG or
TIG is OK and brass should not be a problem as long as the temp stays
low enough. Some of the HSLA's apparantly are highly corrosion
resistant as well.

Brazing high strength alloy steel components of automotive bodies is
STRICTLY FORBIDDEN. Mig and tig are acceptable if done to
specifications - spot welding is most common.




Simply because the slopeheads haven't built a robot to do it for them yet!

Q' What part of an aircraft would you want to use 4130 sheet steel for?


Ps I'd love to see a production car that has any TIG welding as part of
its constuction.

Cam.................