Switching to ground....

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Then I've committed an awful lot of runway incursions without
ever being told about it.


Well, you have if you crossed the assigned runway. If you merely crossed
other active runways that were not assigned to you then you're okay.


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an
operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take
off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from
ATC. A clearance to "taxi to" the takeoff runway assigned to the aircraft is
not a clearance to cross that assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that
runway at any point, but is a clearance to cross other runways that
intersect the taxi route to that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to
"taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to
cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.

I am not clear why 'cross any intersecting runways' is a particuarly safe
thing to do. This may make sense at a familiar airport where you know the
taxiways and intersecting runway. At unfamiliar airports, I get extremely
nervous when crossing an intersecting hold short line. There could be
more than one way to get to the assigned runway, and you may be following
a different route than the one the controller had in mind and
inadvertantly cross an active runway. At unfamiliar airports I stop and
verify clearance to cross. I've had controllers get annoyed at me for
that, but better be safe than sorry. Given the increased rate of runway
incursions, this rule never made any sense to me.




"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Then I've committed an awful lot of runway incursions without
ever being told about it.


Well, you have if you crossed the assigned runway. If you merely
crossed other active runways that were not assigned to you then you're
okay.


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport
with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or
taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate
clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to "taxi to" the takeoff
runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that
assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that runway at any point, but
is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to
that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to "taxi to" any point other
than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that
intersect the taxi route to that point.

It's important to remember that authorization from ATC does not relieve the
pilot of responsibility for safety. There is nothing wrong with stopping at
the hold short line and taking a look to make sure you are not about to
taxi into someone's takeoff or landing roll...

But once you have verified it is safe, you do not require additional
permission from Tower/Ground to continue...


Andrew Sarangan wrote in
. 158:

I am not clear why 'cross any intersecting runways' is a particuarly
safe thing to do. This may make sense at a familiar airport where you
know the taxiways and intersecting runway. At unfamiliar airports, I
get extremely nervous when crossing an intersecting hold short line.
There could be more than one way to get to the assigned runway, and you
may be following a different route than the one the controller had in
mind and inadvertantly cross an active runway. At unfamiliar airports I
stop and verify clearance to cross. I've had controllers get annoyed at
me for that, but better be safe than sorry. Given the increased rate of
runway incursions, this rule never made any sense to me.




"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Then I've committed an awful lot of runway incursions without
ever being told about it.


Well, you have if you crossed the assigned runway. If you merely
crossed other active runways that were not assigned to you then you're
okay.


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport
with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or
taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate
clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to "taxi to" the takeoff
runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that
assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that runway at any point, but
is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to
that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to "taxi to" any point other
than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that
intersect the taxi route to that point.

While I wouldn't dispute that you are making a valid safety argument from
one perspective, I see several problems if you examine it from other
perspectives.

What you are describing is a situation analogous to driving an automobile
and stopping at every intersection, even though you have the green light.

A couple of problems that I see:

Following aircraft - Obviously, following aircraft should taxi in a manner
to avoid running over you, but in reality, expected behavior also enters
into that. If you were to just suddenly stop halfway down a long taxiway you
would be creating a similar hazard.

Traffic management - I would imagine that ground uses such techniques is
spacing and sequencing such that aircraft "A" can proceed, followed by
aircraft "B", with aircraft "C" crossing between aircraft "A" and "B".

So, it seems that this is another situation where, at first glance, an
action might appear to be increasing safety, when in fact it is reducing
safety...



"Judah" wrote in message
...
It's important to remember that authorization from ATC does not relieve
the
pilot of responsibility for safety. There is nothing wrong with stopping
at
the hold short line and taking a look to make sure you are not about to
taxi into someone's takeoff or landing roll...

But once you have verified it is safe, you do not require additional
permission from Tower/Ground to continue...


Andrew Sarangan wrote in
. 158:

I am not clear why 'cross any intersecting runways' is a particuarly
safe thing to do. This may make sense at a familiar airport where you
know the taxiways and intersecting runway. At unfamiliar airports, I
get extremely nervous when crossing an intersecting hold short line.
There could be more than one way to get to the assigned runway, and you
may be following a different route than the one the controller had in
mind and inadvertantly cross an active runway. At unfamiliar airports I
stop and verify clearance to cross. I've had controllers get annoyed at
me for that, but better be safe than sorry. Given the increased rate of
runway incursions, this rule never made any sense to me.




"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

Then I've committed an awful lot of runway incursions without
ever being told about it.


Well, you have if you crossed the assigned runway. If you merely
crossed other active runways that were not assigned to you then you're
okay.


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport
with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or
taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate
clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to "taxi to" the takeoff
runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that
assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that runway at any point, but
is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to
that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to "taxi to" any point other
than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that
intersect the taxi route to that point.

"Bill Denton" wrote in
:

While I wouldn't dispute that you are making a valid safety argument
from one perspective, I see several problems if you examine it from
other perspectives.

What you are describing is a situation analogous to driving an
automobile and stopping at every intersection, even though you have
the green light.

The analogy is more like this: all the intermediate lights are red, and
you are told to go through all of them without stopping.



A couple of problems that I see:

Following aircraft - Obviously, following aircraft should taxi in a
manner to avoid running over you, but in reality, expected behavior
also enters into that. If you were to just suddenly stop halfway down
a long taxiway you would be creating a similar hazard.

Traffic management - I would imagine that ground uses such techniques
is spacing and sequencing such that aircraft "A" can proceed, followed
by aircraft "B", with aircraft "C" crossing between aircraft "A" and
"B".


I would have no problem if ground asks me to follow another aircraft. The
problem arises when you are navigating on your own in the dark and you
come across a hold shord line that you were not expecting. Should you go
blasting through it, or should you stop and inquire?



So, it seems that this is another situation where, at first glance, an
action might appear to be increasing safety, when in fact it is
reducing safety...

and you
come across a hold shord line that you were not expecting. Should you go
blasting through it, or should you stop and inquire?


I'd inquire. (it actually came up recently). If it was a line I =was=
expecting that's another thing though.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...

The analogy is more like this: all the intermediate lights are red, and
you are told to go through all of them without stopping.


That's true of Germany, according to Stefan, but it's not true of the US.

Judah wrote:

It's important to remember that authorization from ATC does not relieve the
pilot of responsibility for safety. There is nothing wrong with stopping at
the hold short line and taking a look to make sure you are not about to
taxi into someone's takeoff or landing roll...

There's no need to stop. Do an S turn on the taxiway prior to the
runway if you need to but you shouldn't stop.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...

I am not clear why 'cross any intersecting runways' is a particuarly safe
thing to do.


What do you feel is unsafe about it?



This may make sense at a familiar airport where you know
the taxiways and intersecting runway. At unfamiliar airports, I get
extremely nervous when crossing an intersecting hold short line. There
could be more than one way to get to the assigned runway, and you
may be following a different route than the one the controller had in
mind and inadvertantly cross an active runway.


If there is more than one possible route and the controller has one
particular route in mind he should instruct you to taxi via that route.



At unfamiliar airports I stop and verify clearance to cross. I've
had controllers get annoyed at me for that, but better be safe than
sorry. Given the increased rate of runway incursions, this rule
never made any sense to me.


By all means, if you've reason to doubt the safety of crossing a particular
runway at a particular point and time then verify the instruction. But that
does not necessarily require halting your taxi. You should be able to talk
and taxi at the same time. You might respond that congestion on the ground
control frequency forces you to stop while waiting for a chance to get a
word in, but one of the things that contributes to frequency congestion is
pilots asking for verification of clear, properly issued instructions.

but is a clearance to cross other runways that
intersect the taxi route to that assigned takeoff runway.


Ok, so you are cleared to runway 21. One taxi route takes you across runway
8-26, another equally direct one does not. You are not given a taxi route.

I take it (in the US) you may choose your route and cross 8-26.

Anybody take it differently?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)