Strong crosswind landings!

I flew for the first time since months. The weather was beautiful today.
METAR forecasted calm winds at my airport. I arrived at home airport and
checked the wind stock. To my surprise, the windsock told a different story.
I called in FSS and learned that the wind is blowing 14 knots, gusting to 29
(way outside my comfortable zone) I elected not to go solo. Fortunately, the
instructor was available. As low time pilot, I decided to practice landings
with instructor under those condition (I have to build up my experiences one
way or another.) As soon as we got into the air, I was sweating. I was
trying to keep the plane stable as much as possible. But, under that wind
condition and some serious convective popping all over, it was difficult to
keep it stable. I made a quick mental note not to allow non-aviators to fly
with me under this condition as soon as I got comfortable with it. They
probably will puke 5 minutes after takeoff. Turning to final, I selected
crap approach over my usual slip approach. I had to fight with convective
while correcting the approach to runway and keeping my eyes on airspeed
frequently. Airspeed needle kept popping from 75 to 50 knot and back. I
noticed that when I attempted to land on first 1/3 of runway, the flaring
went so bad that I had to go around few times. I told instructor that the
workload is too much and wanted try a different method. I decided to use
couple feet before halfway as my target landing spot. I, then, executed my
experimental method and my landing was flawless. The reason I wanted to
share my story, I wanted to hear how the experienced pilots out there on how
to handle strong crosswinds and how they expand their comfortable zone.
Obviously, you can't jump in the plane and fly through nasty winds that is
outside your comfortable zone. Do they continue to fly with instructor and
practice with winds that is outside their comfortable zone? Or do they learn
to land by 'trial and errors', praying that they don't crash the plane?

Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to soar!

"Toks Desalu" wrote in message
news:U9Gdc.102757$gA5.1365141@attbi_s03...
[...] I wanted to hear how the experienced pilots out there on how
to handle strong crosswinds and how they expand their comfortable zone.
Obviously, you can't jump in the plane and fly through nasty winds that is
outside your comfortable zone. Do they continue to fly with instructor and
practice with winds that is outside their comfortable zone? Or do they
learn
to land by 'trial and errors', praying that they don't crash the plane?

You can, to some extent, know whether you'll be able to land the airplane
well before you actually get near the runway, using a slip to correct for
the crosswind on final approach. You have some room for error, because
winds usually are lower as you get close to the ground, due to friction
(though, they sometimes get more turbulent too), and also simply because
most tricycle gear airplanes are somewhat tolerant of landing with some
side-load or yaw or both (they tend to straighten out on their own).

That said, if one is so unconfident that they are literally "praying that
they don't crash the plane", then yes...flying in crosswinds with an
instructor is the appropriate way to gain more confidence. For solo
crosswind practice, you should at least be confident that you can a) react
quickly enough to changing wind conditions to keep the airplane in a
reasonable landing attitude, and b) identify when you are unable to land and
execute a go-around.

Keep in mind that one of the biggest challenges for most pilots is using
dramatic enough control inputs to react to strong gusts. For most of us,
most flying involves minor, gentle control inputs and we're not used to
forcing the airplane around. And indeed, on the other hand some pilots
create their own turbulence fighting the airplane. But you do need to be
prepared to use whatever control input it takes to keep the airplane on an
even keel, even if it means full deflection on one or more control surfaces.

You should not need to expect with absolute certainty that you'll be able to
actually make a successful landing; you just need to know how to abort and
find a more appropriate landing site if you can't. Though, I'd argue that
you'll get the most out of the landing practice if the conditions are
conducive to an actual landing.

Whether you're just starting out on your first serious crosswind practice,
or you're an old hand at crosswind landings, there's absolutely no shame in
going around as many times as it takes to get comfortable with the
conditions and your ability to keep the airplane on target for a landing
(keeping in mind, of course, your fuel status and alternate landing sites,
should you ultimately be unable to make a landing at that airport).

As far as your experience with your crosswind practice goes, I'd say that
even having had that instruction, 15G30 is pretty challenging conditions for
anyone, assuming that's mostly crosswind (you didn't say what direction the
wind was, and straight down the runway, that's not really as big a deal).
You may never be truly "comfortable" in those conditions, since you're
unlikely to experience them on a regular basis. Which is fine...the key is
knowing the proper techniques, and when to call "uncle".

With respect to your comment about carrying passengers, personally I would
try to avoid ever carrying passengers in conditions like that; it will be
really bumpy, and even if you are having no problem controlling the
airplane, most passengers would probably consider a landing in those
conditions to be a hair's breadth from an emergency situation.

I can't really comment much on the technique you wound up finding favorable,
since I'm not sure what you changed. Do you mean you simply selected a
different touchdown spot, and that resolved the issue for you? I don't
understand why that would be. Using a crab rather than a slip is, on the
other hand, a more common way to deal with strong crosswinds, especially
since the winds usually are much lower at the surface. If they are 15 knots
crosswind on the ground, they may be 25 or 30 knots just a few hundred feet
up. Of course, with nearly every airplane, you do need to straighten it out
eventually, before touchdown. But as you found, this is a perfectly
workable technique.

Anyway, bottom line: instructors are a great resource any time you find that
you seem to be able to get less than the maximum performance out of an
airplane. Praying may be soothing for some pilots, but I don't think it's
been shown to significantly reduce accident rates.

Pete

Quit watching the airspeed indicator...in turbulent/gusty conditions it is
going to lie to you anyway. Learn the appropriate pitch attitude for
approach speed in your airplane and maintain that pitch attitude as closely
as you can. Eyes outside the cockpit, for sure.

Bob Gardner

"Toks Desalu" wrote in message
news:U9Gdc.102757$gA5.1365141@attbi_s03...
I flew for the first time since months. The weather was beautiful today.
METAR forecasted calm winds at my airport. I arrived at home airport and
checked the wind stock. To my surprise, the windsock told a different
story.
I called in FSS and learned that the wind is blowing 14 knots, gusting to
29
(way outside my comfortable zone) I elected not to go solo. Fortunately,
the
instructor was available. As low time pilot, I decided to practice
landings
with instructor under those condition (I have to build up my experiences
one
way or another.) As soon as we got into the air, I was sweating. I was
trying to keep the plane stable as much as possible. But, under that wind
condition and some serious convective popping all over, it was difficult
to
keep it stable. I made a quick mental note not to allow non-aviators to
fly
with me under this condition as soon as I got comfortable with it. They
probably will puke 5 minutes after takeoff. Turning to final, I selected
crap approach over my usual slip approach. I had to fight with convective
while correcting the approach to runway and keeping my eyes on airspeed
frequently. Airspeed needle kept popping from 75 to 50 knot and back. I
noticed that when I attempted to land on first 1/3 of runway, the flaring
went so bad that I had to go around few times. I told instructor that the
workload is too much and wanted try a different method. I decided to use
couple feet before halfway as my target landing spot. I, then, executed my
experimental method and my landing was flawless. The reason I wanted to
share my story, I wanted to hear how the experienced pilots out there on
how
to handle strong crosswinds and how they expand their comfortable zone.
Obviously, you can't jump in the plane and fly through nasty winds that is
outside your comfortable zone. Do they continue to fly with instructor and
practice with winds that is outside their comfortable zone? Or do they
learn
to land by 'trial and errors', praying that they don't crash the plane?

Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to soar!

Toks Desalu wrote:

Obviously, you can't jump in the plane and fly through nasty winds that is
outside your comfortable zone. Do they continue to fly with instructor and
practice with winds that is outside their comfortable zone? Or do they learn
to land by 'trial and errors', praying that they don't crash the plane?

After I got my PPC and bought my 150, I spent a fair amount of time flying in
stronger winds. As to your statement about 29 knot gusts, how much of a crosswind
component was that? In any case, I just gradually increased the amount of wind I was
able to handle, usually by flying to an airport at which the crosswind component was
greater than my home field.

To this day, if I have to "pray that I don't crash the plane", the wheels will not
touch the ground at that airport. I will go someplace else where the croswind
component is better and land there.

My one piece of advice for you is to avoid changes in your landing technique in
unusual situations. If you want to get used to crab landings, do that on a more
benign day as a training exercise. When the chips are down and you need to count on
your training, land the way you've been trained to land. Once you're comfortable with
crabbing it in, it can be another tool in your box. Me, I stick with slips. If I can
keep the plane straight on short final, I can keep it straight the rest of the way
down.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

No praying here, if I can't do it, I go to an alternate (plane is to expensive
to just be crashing)
For long XC's, I like to plan fuel stops/landings at airports with cross runways
just in case, if not, then I know where one is and use it as my alternate.

But as long as the wind is down the runway or close to it, you wont have a
problem, just relax and fly the plane, its not going to fall out of the sky
(unless you go to slow). Keep your speed up, don't use flaps, don't worry about
where on the runway you land, if you use the entire 6000 ft on roll out its ok,
your safe the plane is safe. that's all that matters. It does not have to be
pretty, you just have to get it on the ground in one piece.

Toks Desalu wrote:

I flew for the first time since months. The weather was beautiful today.
METAR forecasted calm winds at my airport. I arrived at home airport and
checked the wind stock. To my surprise, the windsock told a different story.
I called in FSS and learned that the wind is blowing 14 knots, gusting to 29
(way outside my comfortable zone) I elected not to go solo. Fortunately, the
instructor was available. As low time pilot, I decided to practice landings
with instructor under those condition (I have to build up my experiences one
way or another.) As soon as we got into the air, I was sweating. I was
trying to keep the plane stable as much as possible. But, under that wind
condition and some serious convective popping all over, it was difficult to
keep it stable. I made a quick mental note not to allow non-aviators to fly
with me under this condition as soon as I got comfortable with it. They
probably will puke 5 minutes after takeoff. Turning to final, I selected
crap approach over my usual slip approach. I had to fight with convective
while correcting the approach to runway and keeping my eyes on airspeed
frequently. Airspeed needle kept popping from 75 to 50 knot and back. I
noticed that when I attempted to land on first 1/3 of runway, the flaring
went so bad that I had to go around few times. I told instructor that the
workload is too much and wanted try a different method. I decided to use
couple feet before halfway as my target landing spot. I, then, executed my
experimental method and my landing was flawless. The reason I wanted to
share my story, I wanted to hear how the experienced pilots out there on how
to handle strong crosswinds and how they expand their comfortable zone.
Obviously, you can't jump in the plane and fly through nasty winds that is
outside your comfortable zone. Do they continue to fly with instructor and
practice with winds that is outside their comfortable zone? Or do they learn
to land by 'trial and errors', praying that they don't crash the plane?

Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to soar!

Very well said, thats it in a nutshell and part of flight planning, know your destination
airport, know your alternate. If you have doubts, tell tower that if you decide to go
missed then your intentions are to divert to xyz airport so he knows what to tell you as
soon as you abort the landing.


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

To this day, if I have to "pray that I don't crash the plane", the wheels will not
touch the ground at that airport. I will go someplace else where the croswind
component is better and land there.

Keep in mind that one of the biggest challenges for most pilots is using
dramatic enough control inputs to react to strong gusts. For most of us,
most flying involves minor, gentle control inputs and we're not used to
forcing the airplane around. And indeed, on the other hand some pilots
create their own turbulence fighting the airplane.

That last statement is the truest I've seen here for a while.

It took me probably 500 hours before I realized that *I* was creating most
of the "turbulence" when flying in rough air, by trying to counteract every,
single gust of wind. I'd slap the yoke back and forth, in a vain attempt to
keep the wings perfectly level.

Of course, I'd be a half-step out of phase with the movement -- no one can
react instantaneously, especially not in a Spam can -- so my efforts only
increased the frequency and intensity of the "turbulence."

Mary is only now (with right around that same number of hours) figuring this
out for herself. For the longest time, she griped that the air always
"smoothed out" when it was my turn to fly -- when, in fact, it was simply
our techniques that were different.

The trick is to ride most of the bumps out, counteracting only the biggest
"wing-lifters"... Maybe this can be taught -- I vaguely remember my
primary instructor telling me something like this -- but we've had to learn
it the hard way, by experience.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article FfSdc.2423$wP1.7246@attbi_s54, Jay Honeck
wrote:

The trick is to ride most of the bumps out, counteracting only the biggest
"wing-lifters"... Maybe this can be taught -- I vaguely remember my
primary instructor telling me something like this -- but we've had to learn
it the hard way, by experience.

When flying formation you do not correct, just ride through it.
Everyone is flying through the same air, so they get bumped equally.
(For L-16's, anyway!)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 at 23:17:08 in message
U9Gdc.102757$gA5.1365141@attbi_s03, Toks Desalu
wrote:

with me under this condition as soon as I got comfortable with it. They
probably will puke 5 minutes after takeoff. Turning to final, I selected
crap approach over my usual slip approach. I had to fight with convective
while correcting the approach to runway and keeping my eyes on airspeed
frequently.

Sorry but I couldn't resist: if you have several levels of approach
standard why did you use the worst one?
--
David CL Francis

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:15:02 +0100, David CL Francis
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 at 23:17:08 in message
U9Gdc.102757$gA5.1365141@attbi_s03, Toks Desalu
wrote:

with me under this condition as soon as I got comfortable with it. They
probably will puke 5 minutes after takeoff. Turning to final, I selected
crap approach over my usual slip approach. I had to fight with convective
while correcting the approach to runway and keeping my eyes on airspeed
frequently.

Sorry but I couldn't resist: if you have several levels of approach
standard why did you use the worst one?

It's same the one I use when ever I try to demonstrate the skills I
have honed to perfection after a 1000 hours of practice.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com