experimental for commercial?

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:
Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers or
cargo for compensation.

I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
charging $150/hour for his time....

You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a fairly
recent (last several years) policy change, though.

While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and a
$5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
yet! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:
Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club used
the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry passengers
or
cargo for compensation.

I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
charging $150/hour for his time....

You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a fairly
recent (last several years) policy change, though.

While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and a
$5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
yet! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
homebuilt.

Bill Daniels

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:42:51 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
.. .

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline service
yet! :-)

I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
homebuilt.

Well, they *used* to allow it. Back in the '60s, Pete Bowers installed a
glider tow hook on N500F, the original Fly Baby. He went to see the local
FSDO on a Friday to get the appropriate waiver.

The FAA inspector was a bit harried...he'd just come back from a long
vacation, and his in-basket was still stacked with paperwork. Since he
knew Pete, and Pete hand-carried his application, he just signed off on the
glider-tow waiver on N500F.

Pete wasted no time. He spent the entire weekend towing gliders, mostly
his own Baby Bolus.

He got a call on Monday. The inspector had finally made it to the bottom
of his in-basket...and found a new directive from FAA headquarters stating
that amateur-built aircraft could no longer be issued tow waivers.

I don't know the cause of this change of policy, forty-odd years ago. It
certainly could have been a reaction to news that some folks were operating
Amateur-Built aircraft in a commercial fashion, getting paid per tow. The
prohibition is listed in FAAA ORder 8130.2E in the same breath as banner
towing and intentional parachute jumping, and these are also activities
with a lot of commercial activity.

Since the prohibition is contained in an FAA Order, not merely an Advisory
Circular or direction by a particular FSDO, it would probably take a bit of
effort to get changed. EAA could probably do it, but I suspect the number
of homebuilders who would benefit by such a change is actually pretty low.
Probably would work better as an effort by the SSA.

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:42:51 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
.. .

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline
service
yet! :-)

I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
homebuilt.

Well, they *used* to allow it. Back in the '60s, Pete Bowers installed a
glider tow hook on N500F, the original Fly Baby. He went to see the local
FSDO on a Friday to get the appropriate waiver.

The FAA inspector was a bit harried...he'd just come back from a long
vacation, and his in-basket was still stacked with paperwork. Since he
knew Pete, and Pete hand-carried his application, he just signed off on
the
glider-tow waiver on N500F.

Pete wasted no time. He spent the entire weekend towing gliders, mostly
his own Baby Bolus.

He got a call on Monday. The inspector had finally made it to the bottom
of his in-basket...and found a new directive from FAA headquarters stating
that amateur-built aircraft could no longer be issued tow waivers.

I don't know the cause of this change of policy, forty-odd years ago. It
certainly could have been a reaction to news that some folks were
operating
Amateur-Built aircraft in a commercial fashion, getting paid per tow. The
prohibition is listed in FAAA ORder 8130.2E in the same breath as banner
towing and intentional parachute jumping, and these are also activities
with a lot of commercial activity.

Since the prohibition is contained in an FAA Order, not merely an Advisory
Circular or direction by a particular FSDO, it would probably take a bit
of
effort to get changed. EAA could probably do it, but I suspect the number
of homebuilders who would benefit by such a change is actually pretty low.
Probably would work better as an effort by the SSA.

Ron Wanttaja

I broached this idea to the SSA but got slapped down hard. There's no
interest there in working for a change. Most air tow operators think the
aging crop dusters they fly are the pinnacle of airplane development even if
it takes six months to get FAA approval to bolt a tow hook to one.

However, if the EAA were to do it there would be an opportunity for some
very interesting engineering in designing a purpose built aircraft to tow
gliders and possibly a good opportunity for the designer to recover his
expenses and make a profit. The payoffs from testing auto engine
conversions, PRSU's and propeller designs under harsh conditions like towing
gliders would be huge.

This is a great idea that would benefit both groups but I fear it will never
go anywhere.

Bill Daniels

I believe it can be done IF your operating limits OKs it.

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:fHYxc.12484$0y.446@attbi_s03...

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:59:43 GMT, John Ammeter
wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:43:52 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:
Actually, when I think of it, the prohibition is actually against
operations "for hire." You can use an experimental amateur-built to
support your own business. One of the members of the Fly Baby club
used
the airplane to deliver insurance checks, and you can use the plane to
shoot photographs from. But you can't hire it out, nor carry
passengers
or
cargo for compensation.

I believe it's permissable for a CFI to give lessons in his
RV charging only for his time. Of course, he may be
charging $150/hour for his time....

You're right, and this reminds me that kit manufacturers are allowed to
provide for-hire transition training in their aircraft. This is a
fairly
recent (last several years) policy change, though.

While one cannot rent a homebuilt, a flying club can own one and make it
available to members. The Fly Baby Flyers had a $250 initiation fee and
a
$5/hour charge for flight time (dry, of course). The Second Story Club
required members to buy into the club, and charged $3/hour.

Keep it up, guys...we'll argue these things into scheduled airline
service
yet! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I just wish there were a loophole that allowed towing gliders with a
homebuilt.

Bill Daniels