Flight Simulator Software - Any Help or Just a Game?

So damaging can the use of the simulator be during this stage, that it's
use can actually retard the progress of a new student.

Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of flight.
(Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real flight lessons,
I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and soloed
with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Quite frankly, I'd be willing to bet that my time riding motorcycles was
just as helpful in learning to fly (the physics of riding and flying are
nearly identical) -- but my instructor (who, by the way, was an older
gentleman and quite the technophobe. He believed that computers were evil
devices from Day One.) figured that all my sim time really helped --
especially in the early stages of flight instruction.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Z15%c.136659$Fg5.37892@attbi_s53...
So damaging can the use of the simulator be during this stage, that
it's use can actually retard the progress of a new student.

Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of
flight. (Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real
flight lessons, I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and
soloed with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Quite frankly, I'd be willing to bet that my time riding motorcycles
was just as helpful in learning to fly (the physics of riding and
flying are nearly identical) -- but my instructor (who, by the way,
was an older gentleman and quite the technophobe. He believed that
computers were evil devices from Day One.) figured that all my sim
time really helped -- especially in the early stages of flight
instruction.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Although your motorcycle skills and experience would most certainly have
had a positive effect on accelerating the learning process in the
airplane, the actual effect of flying a desktop simulator would have
limited effect. It's true that the simulator would have taught you the
basic DIRECTION of movement for each control, and that would be a
positive, but for the actual purpose of flying an airplane, it's
PRESSURES and RATES that are the pertinent factors, NOT direction!
Control direction is learned early on and the good instructor gets away
from direction quickly and begins working you with pressures
immediately. Over concentration on control direction is one of the big
negatives that has to be addressed by instructors with students coming
out of a heavy desktop sim environment into the real world of actual
flying.
From the instructor's viewpoint, the negatives involved in acclimating a
student to the control pressure environment after having been exposed to
a directional environment only as it exists in the sim; FAR exceeds any
positives gained through the knowledge and use of a joystick in a
simulator.
The motorcycle experience however would have been a huge plus, as is any
(hand eye vs pressure of application equals coordination )background.
In your case, I'm fairly certain that the reason for your accelerated
progress wasn't your sim experience, but rather the motorcycle skills
coupled with your extreme positive motivation and ability to learn and
absorb quickly.

I'm sure it helped however, that from the tons of hours you spent flying
the simulator, you already knew which direction to move the controls.
Why if you had been one of my students, this valuable information would
have saved you a HUGE amount of learning time.....say about the first
fifteen seconds of your first dual hour when I explained control
direction to you. Then of course, I could begin the process of weaning
you off the expected sim reaction and into the real world of getting to
know those pesky control pressures. Who knows...with all that motorcycle
training and hand eye stuff going for us, we might even get into those
pressures without wasting all that much time; but that would of course
depend on how good I was at getting you to let go of all that sim time,
and how receptive you were to actually letting it go!! :-)

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

Although your motorcycle skills and experience would most certainly have
had a positive effect on accelerating the learning process in the
airplane, the actual effect of flying a desktop simulator would have
limited effect. It's true that the simulator would have taught you the
basic DIRECTION of movement for each control, and that would be a
positive, but for the actual purpose of flying an airplane, it's
PRESSURES and RATES that are the pertinent factors, NOT direction!



This has made me rethink a little. My time windsurfing surely helped in
this regard.

--
Dave A

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Z15%c.136659$Fg5.37892@attbi_s53...
So damaging can the use of the simulator be during this stage, that
it's use can actually retard the progress of a new student.

Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of
flight. (Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real
flight lessons, I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and
soloed with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Quite frankly, I'd be willing to bet that my time riding motorcycles
was just as helpful in learning to fly (the physics of riding and
flying are nearly identical) -- but my instructor (who, by the way,
was an older gentleman and quite the technophobe. He believed that
computers were evil devices from Day One.) figured that all my sim
time really helped -- especially in the early stages of flight
instruction.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Control direction is learned early on and the good instructor gets away
from direction quickly and begins working you with pressures
immediately. Over concentration on control direction is one of the big
negatives that has to be addressed by instructors with students coming
out of a heavy desktop sim environment into the real world of actual
flying.
From the instructor's viewpoint, the negatives involved in acclimating a
student to the control pressure environment after having been exposed to
a directional environment only as it exists in the sim; FAR exceeds any
positives gained through the knowledge and use of a joystick in a
simulator.
The motorcycle experience however would have been a huge plus, as is any
(hand eye vs pressure of application equals coordination )background.
In your case, I'm fairly certain that the reason for your accelerated
progress wasn't your sim experience, but rather the motorcycle skills
coupled with your extreme positive motivation and ability to learn and
absorb quickly.

I'm sure it helped however, that from the tons of hours you spent flying
the simulator, you already knew which direction to move the controls.
Why if you had been one of my students, this valuable information would
have saved you a HUGE amount of learning time.....say about the first
fifteen seconds of your first dual hour when I explained control
direction to you. Then of course, I could begin the process of weaning
you off the expected sim reaction and into the real world of getting to
know those pesky control pressures. Who knows...with all that motorcycle
training and hand eye stuff going for us, we might even get into those
pressures without wasting all that much time; but that would of course
depend on how good I was at getting you to let go of all that sim time,
and how receptive you were to actually letting it go!! :-)

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Dave" wrote in message
news:aNq%c.1509$sS4.87@trndny03...

Although your motorcycle skills and experience would most certainly
have
had a positive effect on accelerating the learning process in the
airplane, the actual effect of flying a desktop simulator would have
limited effect. It's true that the simulator would have taught you
the
basic DIRECTION of movement for each control, and that would be a
positive, but for the actual purpose of flying an airplane, it's
PRESSURES and RATES that are the pertinent factors, NOT direction!



This has made me rethink a little. My time windsurfing surely helped
in
this regard.

--
Dave A

I'm sure it did. Students coming into flight training with a good
background in sports; normal or better reasoning skills; and a high
positive motivation based on positive incentive are very easy to work
with and train.
Surprisingly enough, a background in aviation related subjects can be
either an asset or a liability depending on exactly what has been
absorbed. It's a complete toss up in this area until the instructor
discovers what can be used and what has to be changed. Some of the most
difficult students I ever had, brought prior aviation knowledge into the
learning curve with them that was flawed...but as I said, it can be an
asset as well. The problem is that prior aviation knowledge has to be
evaluated by the instructor and this takes time away that could have
been spent in more productive ways.
All things considered, I much preferred the student coming in cold in
the aviation knowledge department and heavy in the other attributes I
mentioned.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Dave" wrote in message news:aNq%c.1509$sS4.87@trndny03...

Although your motorcycle skills and experience would most certainly have
had a positive effect on accelerating the learning process in the
airplane, the actual effect of flying a desktop simulator would have
limited effect. It's true that the simulator would have taught you the
basic DIRECTION of movement for each control, and that would be a
positive, but for the actual purpose of flying an airplane, it's
PRESSURES and RATES that are the pertinent factors, NOT direction!



This has made me rethink a little. My time windsurfing surely helped in
this regard.

I agree. I liken flying more to sailing than anything else. The
basic concepts of passing air over a movable surface to give lift (in
the air planes case) or thrust (in the sailing sense) are almost
identical. The other thing that struck me as being almost identical
was that if you make a change in trim in either case the craft takes a
moment to 'settle' into its new configuration. I spent a bit of time
chasing dials when I first flew until I made this connection to
sailing. Also the notion of 'staying ahead' of what the craft is
doing is identical (although its far easier to do in a
yacht/windsurfer than it is in a plane IMO, but thats debateable).

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of
flight. (Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real
flight lessons, I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and
soloed with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Same here. I soloed after 4.5 hours, but in 1984 during
the wire-frame depiction age, and my sim time was all on
one of those thingies (a Sinclair in my case). Didn´t have
zillions of hours on those either, but probably several
dozen.

I definitely had the impression that the sim time helped
a lot right from the beginning, not only with the direction
the controls worked, but things like minding the speed,
keeping the glidepath towards the threshold and other
details. Even managed a landing on my first lesson without
intervention (except verbal) from the instructor.
(Though I am not sure how remarkable or unusual a feat
that is, on a reasonably calm day).

As for other background there was no motorcycling experience
in my case. But I was extremely motivated. And I had been up
in a glider maybe three or four times as a kid and been
allowed to briefly try the controls (some 15 years earlier,
and total time for that cannot have amounted to more than
about half an hour).

This would actually be an interesting subject to see
investigated scientifically. It is so easy to have opinions.
Not that some of the opinions aren't valid and helpful
sometimes, but somehow they can never be totally convincing.

Cheers CV

I agree. Flight sims did not teach me how to fly. But they DID teach me
about maintaining a sensitive touch and how powerful small adjustments can
be. The first time I got behind the wheel of a car with an instructor, he
was amazed at how smooth my control inputs were. I didn't swerve while
alternately jamming on the gas and brakes. He asked "are you SURE you've
never driven a car before?" While I certainly wasn't perfect, I credit
flight sims with giving me that smooth touch.

In addition, flying different aircraft in MS Flight Simulator had me
constantly trying different sensitivities so that I didn't get locked into
believing that "when I push the joystick this much, I will bank this much."
Instead, I would learn to adapt to each aircraft and see that there was no
single way of flying the sim. When I first took the controls of a real 152
in February, it was the same basic idea. This was a new set of controls, and
I'd have to explore them.

Now, I'm not sure if I can give the following credit to FS or not, but I
seem to have a good sense of direction these days. I always seem to know
which way I'm heading and where things are in relation to me. My instructor
has asked where we are at random points on x-c's, and I tell him. Maybe
that's just something built into my mind, or maybe it's the result of 6
years of flying above a virtual Los Angeles. Maybe it's a bit of both.

In summary: Flight sims taught me that before I could learn a vehicle's
controls, I would first have to explore them with a careful hand. A good
sense of direction may have been at least partly the result of the sims.


-Tony
Student Pilot
31.3 Hours




"Jay Honeck" wrote
Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of flight.
(Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real flight
lessons,
I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and soloed
with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Quite frankly, I'd be willing to bet that my time riding motorcycles was
just as helpful in learning to fly (the physics of riding and flying are
nearly identical) -- but my instructor (who, by the way, was an older
gentleman and quite the technophobe. He believed that computers were evil
devices from Day One.) figured that all my sim time really helped --
especially in the early stages of flight instruction.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:56:09 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

So damaging can the use of the simulator be during this stage, that it's
use can actually retard the progress of a new student.

Another point of view:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of flight.
(Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real flight lessons,
I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and soloed
with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Quite frankly, I'd be willing to bet that my time riding motorcycles was
just as helpful in learning to fly (the physics of riding and flying are
nearly identical) -- but my instructor (who, by the way, was an older
gentleman and quite the technophobe. He believed that computers were evil
devices from Day One.) figured that all my sim time really helped --
especially in the early stages of flight instruction.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Atari ST? I would have killed for one of those. I was stuck with an
Atari 800 that I had about $1,000 invested in, if you can believe
that. I started flying Bruce Artwick's flight simulator before it was
SubLogic. I also believe that my 30 years of motorcycle riding helped
with my flying. Everything from the similarity of motion to the
attentiveness to weather helped.

That being said, I do think that the simulator can be harmful to a new
student primarily because of the well documented "head in the cockpit"
syndrome. Those that have flown simulators for many years may be over
that problem. At any rate, there is much to be gained from Flight
Simulator, even if not at the beginning of your training. In response
to the OP, it is not a substitute for a real plane or a CFI but it is
clearly more than just a game.

Rich Russell

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:56:09 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

I learned to fly ten years ago in 1994. I started "flying" sims in the
mid-80s, when they were little more than wire-frame depictions of flight.
(Anyone remember Atari STs?) By the time I could afford real flight lessons,
I had a zillion hours of sim time.

At least partially as a result, I took to flying immediately, and soloed
with just 6.4 hours in my logbook.

Perhaps. On the other hand, during the war years it was routine to
solo students in as few as 8 to 12 hours of stick time. This is with
no previous experience and in some cases no previous experience even
driving a car. In addition, the trainer was inevitably a taildragger.

This pre-dates electronic flight simulators by over 40 years so the
ability to solo early had nothing to do with any kind of pre flying
training.

Most of the people who become pilots have ALWAYS wanted to learn to
fly and this tends to create a very receptive attitude for learning
when that time comes.

Corky Scott

Corky Scott wrote
Perhaps. On the other hand, during the war years it was routine to
solo students in as few as 8 to 12 hours of stick time. This is with
no previous experience and in some cases no previous experience even
driving a car. In addition, the trainer was inevitably a taildragger.

True. The standard military trainer of the time was a Stearman.
These days, it's considered a tricky, high performance (sic!) biplane.
There were some important things you're leaving out, though.

Training to solo took place on open grass fields. Cross wind landing
were not taught - or done. The students were all young and eager.
There was no radio work and no instrument work - just airwork and
landings.

Every field had a truck standing by. Each truck had a repair crew -
and a bed full of ailerons. The crews could replace an aileron on a
groundlooped airplane and have it ready for service in SEVEN MINUTES.
Imagine how much practice they got. A groundloop was no big deal.

Most older taildraggers are pussycats on wide open grass fields
landing into the wind - it's landing on paved narrow crosswind runways
with obstructions that makes them exciting. If all I had to do was
teach the average teenager to land, only on grass and into the wind,
and only well enough that I could be certain he would not hurt himself
- the occasional groundloop not being a big deal - I could solo them
in 6 hours all day long and twice on Sunday.

Realistically, I can't solo a brand new student in 6 hours these days.
My home field only has one narrow paved runway, aligned cross to the
prevailing winds and with structures and trees that make any crosswind
gusty. The pattern is busy, and radio use is expected. The FAA gives
me a laundry list of things I have to do with them before I solo them.
These days, if someone soloes in under 10 hours, that's pretty good,
and generally indicates better than average preparation.

Michael