Radio 'altercation' with ATC

On 11 Dec 2004 22:57:18 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
wrote in
.com::

Newps wrote:
Brien K. Meehan wrote:
Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

Our rule book.

I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?

He's probably referring to FAA Order 7110.65:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/ . However, he'll have to provide the
specifics.

Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
various airspaces.

Larry Dighera wrote:

On 11 Dec 2004 22:57:18 -0800, "Brien K. Meehan"
wrote in
.com::


Newps wrote:

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

Our rule book.

I appreciate the hint, but could you be more specific?
Is this a rule book which places regulatory demands on pilots?


He's probably referring to FAA Order 7110.65:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/ . However, he'll have to provide the
specifics.

Newps wrote:
Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
various airspaces.

There's nothing applicable there.

I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
by any air traffic controller.

As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
must comply.

91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.

Newps wrote:
Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
various airspaces.

There's nothing applicable there.

I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
by any air traffic controller.

As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
must comply.

91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Newps wrote:

Just go to chapter 7 of the .65 and you can see the rules for the
various airspaces.


There's nothing applicable there.

I still contend that a pilot must comply with instructions given to him
by any air traffic controller.

As a ridiculous example, if I'm south of Chicago and I contact SoCal
approach, and they tell me to follow a helicopter for landing at MIA, I
must comply.

91.123(b) supports this and is regulatory. Nothing else, including
7110.65 seems to specifically contradict this.


What Newps is tryin to tell you... is the controller doesnt have the
authority to give you instructions outside of his area/jurisdiction. The
"administrator of the FAA" is the authority behind 7110. Therefore he is
not "exercising air traffic control" in the areas outside of his
jurisdiction and authority.

In rebuttal to your ridiculous example, You would need to advise SoCal
approach that you will need to land for fuel prior to following the helo
all the way to Miami :P

Dave

Dave S wrote:
What Newps is tryin to tell you... is the controller doesnt have the
authority to give you instructions outside of his area/jurisdiction.
The
"administrator of the FAA" is the authority behind 7110. Therefore he
is
not "exercising air traffic control" in the areas outside of his
jurisdiction and authority.

Yeah, I understand what he's trying to say.

This seems to be one of those things that everybody knows, but isn't
really stated authoritatively anywhere. I can't find that rule in
7110.65, but I'm not intimately familiar with it. I'd like to
corrected if possible.

Even so, that's somebody else's problem. I'd still have to comply with
a controller's directives, even if he's acting outside his authority.
The language of 91.123 doesn't account for appropriate ATC
instructions, it's says "in an area where air traffic control is
exercised." In my silly example, I might be in Peoria's airspace,
which is an area where air traffic control is exercised, so I'm
obligated to follow instructions given by ATC, even if it is SoCal
Approach.

.... but this is a good thing. A more prudent example might be
something that happened to me on my student long solo XC. I made a
list of controllers to talk to, and accidently got out of order. I
called Flint Tower when I meant to call Saginaw Tower. Flint Tower
told me to remain clear of Class D and contact "Approach" on 118.80. I
contacted Approach, which turned out to be Flint Approach, and got
everything straightened out quickly. But, in this case, Flint told me
to stay clear of their Class D (well, every Class D, I guess), and I
was obligated to do that, even though I was outside Flint's
jurisdiction.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:


This seems to be one of those things that everybody knows, but isn't
really stated authoritatively anywhere. I can't find that rule in
7110.65, but I'm not intimately familiar with it. I'd like to
corrected if possible.

You're essentially asking me to prove a negative. Can't do it. My rule
book tells me what I can do in my airspace. There's no list of what I
can't do.



Even so, that's somebody else's problem. I'd still have to comply with
a controller's directives, even if he's acting outside his authority.

No, you don't. If a controller tries to give you something that the
rules do not allow then say unable. It's as simple as that.


The language of 91.123 doesn't account for appropriate ATC
instructions, it's says "in an area where air traffic control is
exercised."

But you're examples are in areas where ATC is not exercised.



In my silly example, I might be in Peoria's airspace,
which is an area where air traffic control is exercised, so I'm
obligated to follow instructions given by ATC, even if it is SoCal
Approach.

No.



... but this is a good thing. A more prudent example might be
something that happened to me on my student long solo XC. I made a
list of controllers to talk to, and accidently got out of order. I
called Flint Tower when I meant to call Saginaw Tower. Flint Tower
told me to remain clear of Class D and contact "Approach" on 118.80. I
contacted Approach, which turned out to be Flint Approach, and got
everything straightened out quickly. But, in this case, Flint told me
to stay clear of their Class D (well, every Class D, I guess), and I
was obligated to do that, even though I was outside Flint's
jurisdiction.

He's exercising his control within his class D, he didn't do anything in
the class E.