New traffic warning device

Loran,

If you look at the ATD
sure it is low priced, but it also doesn't have near the features or
resolution as the other devices.


Care to explain?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

All you have to do is look at their user manuals on any of these
devices to see the ATD300 has hardly any features. I am just reading
through, side by side, the features.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/proxalert/download/ProXalert%20R5%20-%20Product%20Brief%20(Nov%202003).PDF
http://www.monroyaero.com/ATD300Manual.pdf
http://surecheck.net/five/pdf/VRX_1-0-1_Full.pdf



These are the deficiencies I noticed from comparing the different
models. The ATD does have a bus voltage monitoring, but when you look
at all of the other factors, I think it comes up short.




The ATD does not have an altimeter, which leaves it to listen to any
nearby transponder for a reference altitude. Like I showed before
this could be problematic if you start squawking any of those codes.

The ATD requires you to have an aircraft with a working transponder
and be flying in adequate radar coverage at all times.

The ATD will not show any altitude outside of a 1000' window

The ATD does not take batteries

The ATD has a resolution of 1.0 NM increments only. Saying an aircraft
is less than 1 NM is poor resolution around an airport, where as the
others go from 1.0 down to 0.1 NM

The ATD does not have any volume control for in flight use

The ATD does not have any way to show how many other threats are
around you.

The ATD has no visual indication of alerting you

The ATD does not have any dataport for upgrading or interfacing

The ATD does not have an independent mode selection system for range
or altitude

The ATD audio interface has no mixing or mono-stereo selection

The ATD has no altitude drift alarm

The ATD has no selection of flight status, like ground, or flight

Check them out, they all have manuals online.




Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...
Loran,

If you look at the ATD
sure it is low priced, but it also doesn't have near the features or
resolution as the other devices.


Care to explain?

Loran,

ok, first, in the interest of full disclosure, I am involved in a pilot
shop selling the ATD-300 in Germany.

But I am seriously interested in this. What features exactly are we
talking about? Altitude display? It's there. Multiple targets? It's
there, albeit in alternating display mode. But here's my main point: If
you get an alert, what will you do? Will you keep your head inside the
cockpit and start evaluating all the stuff that some of the display
show, or will you do the smart thing and LOOK OUTSIDE?

So, which feature do you find missing that doesn't just look good on a
spec sheet but that you actually need in practice? Again, I am
seriously interested in your opinion.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Here is my question in a scenario basis that I can think of.

Since the ATD relies solely on your transponder for altitude,

If you took off out of an airport and you didn't reach adequate radar
coverage for 1000 feet or more, how is the ATD unit going to know
what altitude you are?

If another aircraft is in the pattern, how could the ATD possibly
tell you how high above it is?

another scenario,

If you where flying in radar coverage at say 5,000 feet, and another
aircraft is say 5,700 feet headed towards you. The ATD would say
you are 5,000 feet correct? but what happens if you fly out of radar
coverage, and climb or descend?

So if you started climbing, 5,100......5,200.....etc the ATD would
still say you are at 5,000 feet since that was the last altitude it
got from your transponder correct? So you could end up at the same
altitude of the other aircraft, while the ATD still says +700

another scenario,

Suppose you are flying with the ATD at 2,000 feet and ATC gives you a
squawk code that equals 1,400 feet. Another aircraft close by is at an
altitude of 2,900 feet The atd will be confused and bounce between
showing traffic +900......-600.......+900.......-600

let me ask you this. If you flying in the pattern of a busy airport,
how often are other aircraft within 1 NM of you?

another scenario,

If two equal threats come into the scene, what will the ATD show? a
flipping back and forth picture? At what rate? Is it not possible
for 2 or more aircraft to be flying around you near any airport? See
the problem here?


They admit these errors on page 9 of their manual, and talk about
going through steps to try and stop this problem. All of which are
instantly avoided by the competitive units having a backup altimeter.


A device telling you to look outside is great, but not if it is
constantly telling you to look outside because someone is flying 1
mile away from you, or gives you false altitude readings because you
don't stay straight and level, in radar coverage, and don't squawk one
of the hundreds of confusing codes.

Let me ask you this, with other units having most likely a higher
profit margin, more ESSENTIAL features, why are you as a business, so
eager to promote and sell a less superior product line and make less
money? That makes no sense to me if I where a business. I would
think you would want to sell your customers the best products for the
most profit. That is how I run my business anyway. There are many
competitive products I can choose from, but I wouldn't pick out the
least favored and less profitable to run frontage on.


Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...
Loran,

ok, first, in the interest of full disclosure, I am involved in a pilot
shop selling the ATD-300 in Germany.

But I am seriously interested in this. What features exactly are we
talking about? Altitude display? It's there. Multiple targets? It's
there, albeit in alternating display mode. But here's my main point: If
you get an alert, what will you do? Will you keep your head inside the
cockpit and start evaluating all the stuff that some of the display
show, or will you do the smart thing and LOOK OUTSIDE?

So, which feature do you find missing that doesn't just look good on a
spec sheet but that you actually need in practice? Again, I am
seriously interested in your opinion.

Loran,

Since the ATD relies solely on your transponder for altitude,

If you took off out of an airport and you didn't reach adequate radar
coverage for 1000 feet or more, how is the ATD unit going to know
what altitude you are?

Huh? If my transponder is not interrogated, how will other traffic close by
and at my altitude be interrogated? So, even if my traffic detector knows
my altitude from pressure, it will still not know the target altitude.

That scenario doesn't work for any traffic detector.


If you where flying in radar coverage at say 5,000 feet, and another
aircraft is say 5,700 feet headed towards you. The ATD would say
you are 5,000 feet correct? but what happens if you fly out of radar
coverage, and climb or descend?


Same thing: If my transponder is not interrogated, the target transponder
won't be, either.

So if you started climbing, 5,100......5,200.....etc the ATD would
still say you are at 5,000 feet since that was the last altitude it
got from your transponder correct?

No. It would show absolute altitude of the target, if the target transponder
is being interrogated and giving off Mode C info, and mine isn't.


Suppose you are flying with the ATD at 2,000 feet and ATC gives you a
squawk code that equals 1,400 feet. Another aircraft close by is at an
altitude of 2,900 feet The atd will be confused and bounce between
showing traffic +900......-600.......+900.......-600

Well, time to read the manual again. To quote "In extremely rare cases..."
the above may happen. A solution to the problem is given in the manual.


let me ask you this. If you flying in the pattern of a busy airport,
how often are other aircraft within 1 NM of you?

Not sure I understand the meaning of the question. But I'll offer one thing
which I have said befo If you are looking at any traffic detector while
in the pattern of a busy airport, please tell me before which airport it will
be so I can stay as far away as possible.

If two equal threats come into the scene, what will the ATD show? a
flipping back and forth picture? At what rate? Is it not possible
for 2 or more aircraft to be flying around you near any airport? See
the problem here?

No. The ATD will give preference to the closer threat. Makes sense to me.
And by that time, you should be looking outside anyway!


Let me ask you this, with other units having most likely a higher
profit margin, more ESSENTIAL features, why are you as a business, so
eager to promote and sell a less superior product line and make less
money? That makes no sense to me if I where a business. I would
think you would want to sell your customers the best products for the
most profit. That is how I run my business anyway. There are many
competitive products I can choose from, but I wouldn't pick out the
least favored and less profitable to run frontage on.

Least favored by who? Do you read Aviation Consumer, for example? Their
preference among the previous generation of traffic detectors was pretty
clear. Also, if you assume higher profits (which I don't know anything about),
are you saying you LIKE to be ripped off?

Let me tell you my business model: I try not to rip off my customers on the
vague assumption that "Anything good in aviation has to be expensive".
And yes, that works quite well, thank you.

Have you spent any time actually flying with a traffic detector? I have.
That's how I arrived at my questions and conclusions. And the scenarios you
offer frankly don't convince me at all to spend almost double the money.
But then, I'm probably biased. g

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH), www.aeroversand.de

"Same thing: If my transponder is not interrogated, the target
transponder
won't be, either."

Nothing could be further from the truth. I would reccomend you talk
to your local center, or approach control and see why because the
explanation is rather lengthy. Also bear in mind the growing amount
of Mode S transponders which transmit regardless of interrogations.

Even so, what altitude would your ATD show if you flew out of radar at
5,000 feet and descended 1,000 feet? Without that interrogation, it
would still be locked at 5,000.

"Well, time to read the manual again. To quote "In extremely rare
cases..."
the above may happen. A solution to the problem is given in the
manual."

I read that, and have learned from MANY years that when a manufacturer
says *extremely rare cases* you can bank on it happening often. I also
went a step further and read
http://www.airsport-corp.com/modecascii.txt which lists the pages and
pages and more pages of squawk codes that WILL confuse it. If you fly
IFR at all, the last thing you want to be doing is trying to fix the
ATD while you are flying through the soup.

A "solution"? Why go through all this? Why wonder if the unit is
getting the right altitude? Just get one of the other two units and
then you'll know for sure, whether you fly in or out of radar.


"Do you read Aviation Consumer, for example? Their preference among
the previous generation of traffic detectors was pretty clear."

Actually I have a subscription, but you know, nowhere is there a
review on the Proxalert, Trafficscope, or ATD300. I do however, see a
review from 2 years ago on previously two of the three manufacturers
older devices of the TPAS and ATD200. Now surely, you are not trying
to imply that a consumer review on completely different models from
years past are applicable to anything these manufacturers, or future
manufacturers develope are you?? If that where the case Garmin must
STILL be living in a "dreamworld where we navigate by satellites" and
glass cockpits are still a "Fad which will soon fade"

Better yet, I would be curious if Aviation Consumer is planning on
reviewing all three of these devices.






Thomas Borchert wrote in message ...
Loran,

Since the ATD relies solely on your transponder for altitude,

If you took off out of an airport and you didn't reach adequate radar
coverage for 1000 feet or more, how is the ATD unit going to know
what altitude you are?

Huh? If my transponder is not interrogated, how will other traffic close by
and at my altitude be interrogated? So, even if my traffic detector knows
my altitude from pressure, it will still not know the target altitude.

That scenario doesn't work for any traffic detector.


If you where flying in radar coverage at say 5,000 feet, and another
aircraft is say 5,700 feet headed towards you. The ATD would say
you are 5,000 feet correct? but what happens if you fly out of radar
coverage, and climb or descend?


Same thing: If my transponder is not interrogated, the target transponder
won't be, either.

So if you started climbing, 5,100......5,200.....etc the ATD would
still say you are at 5,000 feet since that was the last altitude it
got from your transponder correct?

No. It would show absolute altitude of the target, if the target transponder
is being interrogated and giving off Mode C info, and mine isn't.


Suppose you are flying with the ATD at 2,000 feet and ATC gives you a
squawk code that equals 1,400 feet. Another aircraft close by is at an
altitude of 2,900 feet The atd will be confused and bounce between
showing traffic +900......-600.......+900.......-600

Well, time to read the manual again. To quote "In extremely rare cases..."
the above may happen. A solution to the problem is given in the manual.


let me ask you this. If you flying in the pattern of a busy airport,
how often are other aircraft within 1 NM of you?

Not sure I understand the meaning of the question. But I'll offer one thing
which I have said befo If you are looking at any traffic detector while
in the pattern of a busy airport, please tell me before which airport it will
be so I can stay as far away as possible.

If two equal threats come into the scene, what will the ATD show? a
flipping back and forth picture? At what rate? Is it not possible
for 2 or more aircraft to be flying around you near any airport? See
the problem here?

No. The ATD will give preference to the closer threat. Makes sense to me.
And by that time, you should be looking outside anyway!


Let me ask you this, with other units having most likely a higher
profit margin, more ESSENTIAL features, why are you as a business, so
eager to promote and sell a less superior product line and make less
money? That makes no sense to me if I where a business. I would
think you would want to sell your customers the best products for the
most profit. That is how I run my business anyway. There are many
competitive products I can choose from, but I wouldn't pick out the
least favored and less profitable to run frontage on.

Least favored by who? Do you read Aviation Consumer, for example? Their
preference among the previous generation of traffic detectors was pretty
clear. Also, if you assume higher profits (which I don't know anything about),
are you saying you LIKE to be ripped off?

Let me tell you my business model: I try not to rip off my customers on the
vague assumption that "Anything good in aviation has to be expensive".
And yes, that works quite well, thank you.

Have you spent any time actually flying with a traffic detector? I have.
That's how I arrived at my questions and conclusions. And the scenarios you
offer frankly don't convince me at all to spend almost double the money.
But then, I'm probably biased. g

Loran,
"Same thing: If my transponder is not interrogated, the target
transponder
won't be, either."

Nothing could be further from the truth. I would reccomend you talk
to your local center, or approach control and see why because the
explanation is rather lengthy. Also bear in mind the growing amount
of Mode S transponders which transmit regardless of interrogations.

Well, I disagree. Also, what about those S-mode transponders? If they
transmit, that's great!


Even so, what altitude would your ATD show if you flew out of radar at
5,000 feet and descended 1,000 feet? Without that interrogation, it
would still be locked at 5,000.

Again, no. It will revert to displaying the target's absolute altitude.

I read that, and have learned from MANY years that when a manufacturer
says *extremely rare cases* you can bank on it happening often.

Ok, so we go into the "wild guessing based on prejudice" mode. To that, all
I can say is: Go ahead, spend the money and be happy with whatever you buy.

Actually I have a subscription, but you know, nowhere is there a
review on the Proxalert, Trafficscope, or ATD300.

And I didn't say that. I referred to the review on the previous generation.

Better yet, I would be curious if Aviation Consumer is planning on
reviewing all three of these devices.


Yes, they do.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)