Brantly B2

I currently fly a Safari and have never had the flicker problem that I had
in the Brantly. I do wear a helmet with a visor..

I thought I knew most of the Safari owners. Your moniker and e-mail aren't
familiar... What happened to your Safari??

Stu Fields


"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
"Stu & Kathy Fields" wrote in message
...
One thing I noticed in the Brantly was that the rotor positioned so
close to
the bubble could and did cause a very annoying flicker with the sun at
the
right angle. A hat with a bill would be a must.
I agree with on poster the Brantly I flew was relatively smooth. I
don't
think that they made the prettiest helo tho..More like a horizontal ice
cream cone. I remember a story Ken Brock told me about running out of
power
with a passenger at a density altitude of about 3,500 but he was on a
pinnacle and didn't have all the ground effect he would have liked..
For my
money, if I was located at a place where the density altitude rarely got
above 4,000, I would consider the Brantly because it was so easy to fly.

In any bubble type plexi cabin a some kind of sunvisor is a must to
block sunglare
I had a Rotorway Exec 90, a Safari, have an R22, a Brantly B2, so I
know the difference
The Brantly is kid'a funny looking, but the beauty is in the eye of
the beholder
As the matter of fact, the cone shaped fuselage is an airstream
stabilizer
The flying characteristics must be the main concern in any aircraft


Stu Fields Safari Driver.
"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
(Davdirect) wrote in message
...
I agree with you about watching the tip path, being careful,
approaching from
the right place,etc. however to untrained passengers I could see
where
this
could be a problem, thats all.
Dave
davdirect

The PIC is always responsible for the safety of passengers & the safe
operation of the rotorcraft.
Placard in Brantly : ROTOR MUST BE STOPPED WHILE LOADING AND UNLOADING
PASSENGERS
Even so tip path plane is over 6 feet high, that's all folks

Dennis: There is an advantage in having the tail rotor higher. Note the #
of helicopters that have the two gear boxes in the tail rotor chain. They
are not adding those for nothing. If you can, get Ray Prouty's book from
www.helobooks.com. It has a good explanation for putting the tail rotor
higher.
Also the biggest reason for keeping the Safari is that I have a Repairman's
certificate which allows me to perform all the maintenance and inspections.
A big $$$ saver. Not to mention that I can modify the ship to my liking.
All the above would not be legal with the Brantly.
Stu
wrote in message
...

Stu,

I reccommend that you keep your Safari. I agree with you completely
about the Brantly looking like a flying Ice Cream Cone. It definitely
takes a lot of the fun out of flying when you know the people on the
ground are laughing at you, wondering if you have any Strawberry-Pecan
for sale. The only thing worse would be to fly in that hot-air
balloon that is shaped like Mickey Mouse.

I was stunned when I discovered that the B2B uses a vertically running
engine *despite* having at least three gearboxes. The Exec uses a
vertically running engine because it does not have a gearbox. I have
to say that I never realized that Lycoming even made a vertical
version of the O-360. I couldn't see well enough into the wreckage to
tell, but there was at least three gearboxes in the B2B. There were
two gearboxes on the tail boom. One was at the apex where it makes a
45 degree turn upward. The other was at the tail rotor.

This extra 45 degree gearbox seems to be a waste. It adds a lot of
extra weight and doesn't buy you anything. I will have to admit that
I was fascinated by the gearboxes themselves. They appeared to be
made out of 2" galvanized pipe elbows. I'm not sure if they really
were, but that's what they looked like.

I read the NTSB report about the crash and learned something. I
learned that the NTSB leaves out a lot of detail. We (myself and
other folks at the airport) were thinking maybe there was something
wrong with the engine which would explain the pilot not having enough
power to maintain a hover. The passenger weighed 190# which shouldn't
have been that excessive. Apparently, the NTSB never bothered to test
the engine and fuel systems as we had expected them to do.

According to the NTSB report, the pilot/owner said that the passenger
was flying the helicopter which caused it to crash. However, this is
not what I heard the passenger say. The passenger told me that he
never took the controls.

The pilot was an airline transport pilot with 28,000 flight hours and
over 100 hours in this particular B2B. I find it difficult to believe
that a pilot with this many hours would carelessly neglect to maintain
rotor RPM if he had a choice. Even if he did turn the controls over
to the passenger, a PIC with 28K hours would not allow the RPM to
decay like that. The tach is in plain sight.

Not to contradict myself, but I am truly interested in the facts that
surround this particular crash regardless of whether my opinion is
right or wrong. As such, I will have point out that the helicopter
crashed shortly after being refueled and that other people have had
trouble after refueling.

On 12/30/2003, a Cessna 441 crashed shortly after refueling at this
same airport. Then, a month later on 1/22/2004, another plane, this
time a Piper PA-23-160, also crashed after refueling. Both of these
accidents were fatal and had engine failure before hitting the ground.
Although, there was speculation about the fuel being bad, it was
tested and nothing was found. Not only that, but there were a lot of
other planes that used the same fuel and didn't crash. Nevertheless,
it still seems like there is more to it than a coincidence.

On another note, I would be curious as to how B2B's handle the weight
shift when a passenger is added. On an Exec, you have to move a
ballast weight depending on whether you have a passenger or not. On
the R22, it uses a high rotor level and geometry solves the problem.
On the B2B, you have a low rotor level and AFAIK no ballast weight.
How does the B2B do it? It this something inherrant to the 3 bladed
hub or does it simply have a large amount of cyclic?

Dennis H.




"Stu & Kathy Fields" wrote:

One thing I noticed in the Brantly was that the rotor positioned so
close to
the bubble could and did cause a very annoying flicker with the sun at
the
right angle. A hat with a bill would be a must.
I agree with on poster the Brantly I flew was relatively smooth. I
don't
think that they made the prettiest helo tho..More like a horizontal ice
cream cone. I remember a story Ken Brock told me about running out of
power
with a passenger at a density altitude of about 3,500 but he was on a
pinnacle and didn't have all the ground effect he would have liked..
For my
money, if I was located at a place where the density altitude rarely got
above 4,000, I would consider the Brantly because it was so easy to fly.

Stu Fields Safari Driver.
"Murphy's law" wrote in message

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

wrote in message
...
SNIP. There were
two gearboxes on the tail boom. One was at the apex where it makes a
45 degree turn upward. The other was at the tail rotor.

This extra 45 degree gearbox seems to be a waste. It adds a lot of
extra weight and doesn't buy you anything. I will have to admit that
I was fascinated by the gearboxes themselves. They appeared to be
made out of 2" galvanized pipe elbows. I'm not sure if they really
were, but that's what they looked like.

I have to come to the rescue of the B2Bs T/R gear boxes, having overhauled
many over the years..
It is a brilliant system that will happily run to it's (1200hr) overhaul
life with no maintenance other than checking the oil level every 100hrs.
Then most of the time at O/H will require virtually no replacement parts to
put it back in service.

Mind you our ships did pipeline patrol so did not sit around to corrode.

The Brantly T/R drive system of cascading oil lubrication is the BEST of any
helicopter.

Slatts

The TR gearboxes were impressive for the size. The B2B isn't all bad.
I tried to buy the ones off the crashed one, but they wouldn't let me.
Like I said, if they weren't housed in 2" galvanized pipe fittings,
then they were in something else that exact same size and shape. If
you have the blueprints of the gearboxes, I'd like to see them.

Dennis.

"Sla#s" wrote:


wrote in message
...
SNIP. There were
two gearboxes on the tail boom. One was at the apex where it makes a
45 degree turn upward. The other was at the tail rotor.

This extra 45 degree gearbox seems to be a waste. It adds a lot of
extra weight and doesn't buy you anything. I will have to admit that
I was fascinated by the gearboxes themselves. They appeared to be
made out of 2" galvanized pipe elbows. I'm not sure if they really
were, but that's what they looked like.

I have to come to the rescue of the B2Bs T/R gear boxes, having overhauled
many over the years..
It is a brilliant system that will happily run to it's (1200hr) overhaul
life with no maintenance other than checking the oil level every 100hrs.
Then most of the time at O/H will require virtually no replacement parts to
put it back in service.

Mind you our ships did pipeline patrol so did not sit around to corrode.

The Brantly T/R drive system of cascading oil lubrication is the BEST of any
helicopter.

Slatts



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

wrote in message
...

The TR gearboxes were impressive for the size. The B2B isn't all bad.
I tried to buy the ones off the crashed one, but they wouldn't let me.
Like I said, if they weren't housed in 2" galvanized pipe fittings,
then they were in something else that exact same size and shape. If
you have the blueprints of the gearboxes, I'd like to see them.

Dennis.

No sorry no blue prints.
From the look of them I believe that all the parts could be standard off the
shelf parts. Bevel gears, right angle case boxes, shims, steel drive tube
and alloy outer tube.
I don't believe Brantly manufacture them (From memory the MRGB was made by
someone in Ohio.)
There are a couple of gear manufactures in the UK who provide standard parts
similar to the Brantly's. I'm sure you could find the same in the US.
But the clever part in the Brantly tail drive was the Archimedes screw oil
pump.

Slatts

"Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message ...
I currently fly a Safari and have never had the flicker problem that I had
in the Brantly. I do wear a helmet with a visor..

I thought I knew most of the Safari owners. Your moniker and e-mail aren't
familiar... What happened to your Safari??

Stu Fields

I bought the Safari not knowing the unique vibration problem
Safari also have a clinking overruning clutch at runup
Big bubble rattle Safari was sold with 15% profit

"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
"Stu & Kathy Fields" wrote in message
...
One thing I noticed in the Brantly was that the rotor positioned so
close to
the bubble could and did cause a very annoying flicker with the sun at
the
right angle. A hat with a bill would be a must.
I agree with on poster the Brantly I flew was relatively smooth. I
don't
think that they made the prettiest helo tho..More like a horizontal ice
cream cone. I remember a story Ken Brock told me about running out of
power
with a passenger at a density altitude of about 3,500 but he was on a
pinnacle and didn't have all the ground effect he would have liked..
For my
money, if I was located at a place where the density altitude rarely got
above 4,000, I would consider the Brantly because it was so easy to fly.

In any bubble type plexi cabin a some kind of sunvisor is a must to
block sunglare
I had a Rotorway Exec 90, a Safari, have an R22, a Brantly B2, so I
know the difference
The Brantly is kid'a funny looking, but the beauty is in the eye of
the beholder
As the matter of fact, the cone shaped fuselage is an airstream
stabilizer
The flying characteristics must be the main concern in any aircraft


Stu Fields Safari Driver.
"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
(Davdirect) wrote in message
...
I agree with you about watching the tip path, being careful,
approaching from
the right place,etc. however to untrained passengers I could see
where
this
could be a problem, thats all.
Dave
davdirect

The PIC is always responsible for the safety of passengers & the safe
operation of the rotorcraft.
Placard in Brantly : ROTOR MUST BE STOPPED WHILE LOADING AND UNLOADING
PASSENGERS
Even so tip path plane is over 6 feet high, that's all folks

Yeah there is some funny vibrations in the Safari. The first is at 400
rotor rpm if you are on hard pack like concrete or pavement. It doesn't
show if you are on the grass. (I just changed the fuel tank bracing and this
vibration seems to have either disappeared or reduced greatly) The other is
if you overspeed the rotor a bunch..Like 525 rotor rpm when the red line is
500.(CHR has experimented with the rotor and at least one time oversped the
rotor to something like 550 and didn't get the vibration. Hopefully a mod
will be in the books soon) I developed a rotor speed alarm circuit which
provides a tone in the headset for both low and high rotor speeds; this has
solved the overspeed problem for me.
I also have a 2/rev that shows up at 1/2 tank fuel but is not there with
full fuel. This 2/rev isn't bad enough to stop flying, but it is aggravating
enough to stay on my list of problems.
The clinking at rotor engagement is not the overrunning clutch but the
centrifugal clutch. There are some techniques that minimze this. Actually,
I have a set of clutch shoes that did not clink. I haven't the foggiest why
these were different, but my starting procedure was to get the engine
running and then go off looking at gages and putting my helmet on leaving
the engine idling at 1,000. The clutch would engage itself smoothly and
everything would be fine. This isn't true with the present clutch shoes.
I know another guy that went from the Brantly to the R22 and he now has a
206A that he is rebuilding. $$$$
Stu Fields
"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
"Kathryn & Stuart Fields" wrote in message
...
I currently fly a Safari and have never had the flicker problem that I
had
in the Brantly. I do wear a helmet with a visor..

I thought I knew most of the Safari owners. Your moniker and e-mail
aren't
familiar... What happened to your Safari??

Stu Fields

I bought the Safari not knowing the unique vibration problem
Safari also have a clinking overruning clutch at runup
Big bubble rattle Safari was sold with 15% profit

"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
"Stu & Kathy Fields" wrote in message
...
One thing I noticed in the Brantly was that the rotor positioned so
close to
the bubble could and did cause a very annoying flicker with the sun
at
the
right angle. A hat with a bill would be a must.
I agree with on poster the Brantly I flew was relatively smooth. I
don't
think that they made the prettiest helo tho..More like a horizontal
ice
cream cone. I remember a story Ken Brock told me about running out
of
power
with a passenger at a density altitude of about 3,500 but he was on
a
pinnacle and didn't have all the ground effect he would have liked..
For my
money, if I was located at a place where the density altitude rarely
got
above 4,000, I would consider the Brantly because it was so easy to
fly.

In any bubble type plexi cabin a some kind of sunvisor is a must to
block sunglare
I had a Rotorway Exec 90, a Safari, have an R22, a Brantly B2, so I
know the difference
The Brantly is kid'a funny looking, but the beauty is in the eye of
the beholder
As the matter of fact, the cone shaped fuselage is an airstream
stabilizer
The flying characteristics must be the main concern in any aircraft


Stu Fields Safari Driver.
"Murphy's law" wrote in message
om...
(Davdirect) wrote in message
...
I agree with you about watching the tip path, being careful,
approaching from
the right place,etc. however to untrained passengers I could
see
where
this
could be a problem, thats all.
Dave
davdirect

The PIC is always responsible for the safety of passengers & the
safe
operation of the rotorcraft.
Placard in Brantly : ROTOR MUST BE STOPPED WHILE LOADING AND
UNLOADING
PASSENGERS
Even so tip path plane is over 6 feet high, that's all folks