Power Off Touchdown Autorotation

No offence or insult taken.
I am ambivalent about the subject because I can see both sides of the
argument and I haven't seen any quantitative evidence that one or the other
is statistically better.

I think the post down the list about the army's cyclical including and
excluding full touch-downs says a lot. If there was a clear answer based on
evidence we would all be doing it. Until then there is a lot of gut feeeling
in it and nothing much to hang a hat on - one way or the other.
Guess it's like most things with some "damned if you do damned if you don't"
in it.

Interesting - about your comment about a "super instructor". In Oz that is
how it is - in a way.
As I recall from my student days (in the 90s) - our more junior instructors
can teach the students, the CFI (In Oz that's Chief Flying Instructor- the
super instructor) has to have interaction with each student on a regular
basis and he's (or she's) the one who signs off that you're ready for the
flight test etc. So it would be easy enough here to ensure that - say if you
were training in an R22 - you did power recoveries with the grade 2
instructors then did full downs with the boss-man. or something along those
lines.
Don't know how you system works in USA

Well doesn't that add to what I said about a machine that isn't safe for
training?

Maybe. Certainly it is a harder machine to train in and probably does exceed
the skill limits of some student pilots. But if UH-1s can exceed the skills
of some pilots then there's no hope for Robbies :-)

At some point we have to be practical and say "this is what we got - now
lets make the work we have to do with it safe as possible". If it were
legislated that R22's couldn't be used for training I would guess the costs
would go up so lots of people would be forced out when they would otherwise
accept the risk.

Many good observations here pro & con. My personal experience is that
when I obtained my helicopter license in 1981, all my autos to that
point were with power recovery. My first full touch down auto was a
180 full touch down auto after an engine failure at 500' agl. I landed
in a bean field & didn't put a nick the Bell 47G2 I was flying. I was
very fortuate that I was in a somewhat rural area. There was not much
to hit except for the ground. Everything happened so fast, I just
reacted. I had maybe 60 hours total at the time. I was far from a hot
stick, still am for that matter.

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????

And adding to that, don't omit what it is they're doing with them in
Australia either. They work those machine very hard, way over the limit,
often flown at or above redline. It's no wonder they ball them up pretty
regularly just due the higher risk of what they're doing.

They've had high hours put on them, low or poor maintenance, usually
followed with padding to logs to attempt to hide this.

Considering how hard they're flown, you have to give the little R22 a little
credit. Its' not a bad machine. You just gotta learn to control that
*less* bit of energy a little better than you do in something with a heavier
blade.

There's no arguing that it's less forgiving, that's a fact, but it's nothing
that can't be learned and controlled with "good" instruction. I have done
full downs in R22's but have to admit, they're much less in heavier
machines.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.

Biff Douglas wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the airport!!!
ggg
Part of what I perceive to be a problem is, if there is too great a
potential for damaging the training equipment, we don't do the
training in that equipment because it costs too much to replace it or
fix it. So, let's just talk about it and not actually do it. Wait
until you are actually faced with the real emergency and see if the
talk works?
I think that kind of training only leads pilots to be shaky in their
own abilities, or on the other side of that coin, to be overconfident.
There it becomes mostly a matter of the individual being able to adapt
to the situation. When I was asked to ferry some Hughes 500's down to
South America, I demanded some recurrent training before I did so.
Hadn't flown one in a few years and wanted to make sure I was up to
speed before I headed south. It included some touchdown autos. No
problems and it certainly made me feel better.
Glad to see some good input and response to this question. Thanks for
your response.
Ol Shy & Bashful

"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
Biff Douglas wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter accidents
in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also do not
have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you will
not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22 you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the airport!!!
ggg

You shouldn't even joke about it Rocky:-)

A pal of mine ran a full weekend on the racetrack with his "pretty" quick
motorcycle (trackbike special 200mph+) and walking back to his car/trailer,
he tripped and landed on his elbow. It blew up like it'd been hit with a
sledgehammer. For a full year he could barely use his arm and even now he
still can't straighten it.

So that's two useless elbows he's got now:-)) (He did bust the other on his
bike a few years earlier)


Beav

Beav wrote:
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
Biff Douglas wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:33:33 +0200, "Hennie Roets"
wrote:

Given a choice, I'd do full touch down autos but not in my
helicopter.
Ever price new skids? I'll pass on doing full touch downs in a
R-22.
In fact, I'll pass on doing anything in a R-22.

Biff I do not think you should write off the R22 that quick.

There are about 80% more new R22 sold than any other helicopter
in the
world together. More of them are
used for training than any other heli. If you look at the hours
flown
worldwide they fly the most as well.
I saw statistics a while ago on the internet about helicopter
accidents
in
Australia and do you know who came
out on top. Guess?????
It might not be the most rugged helicopter in the world. I also
do not
have
the highest inertia in the main
rotor blades but I can tell you if you can safely fly an R22 you
will
not
have problems with any of the others.


Regards

Hennie

I agree with your comments re flying the R-22 safely. It demands
respect. I have flown them and agree that if you can fly the R-22
you
can pretty much fly anything. I just dont think that the way the
R-22
is built I'd be doing full down autos in one if I owned it.
********************************
Why not? Is the R-22 not safe for full down autos? Is your skill or
training level not up to it? Or is it just a matter of dollars? I
don't believe in crashing my car just because it has all the
airbags
either but I've driven enough miles that I can avoid most of those
accidents. Same in helicopters and airplanes. Now just
watch....I'll
trip over a damned tiedown cable and break my neck at the
airport!!!
ggg

You shouldn't even joke about it Rocky:-)

Beav
Why not joke? Sure beats crying! I've been so beat up/busted
up/shot/stabbed and generally treated ugly that it doesn't matter
anymore! I've walked into wings, rotor blades, tail rotors,(mostly at
night) tripped over tie downs, slipped on ice and oil, and wondered why
I ever bothered to get into aviation?
Still, in at least 18 mayday situations, I've only really been injured
once in aircraft. Night time in a phyxed wing with an engine failure
over the pine swamps. Just another adventure...... BTW, shootings and
stabbings are for real.
Rocky

A pal of mine ran a full weekend on the racetrack with his "pretty"
quick
motorcycle (trackbike special 200mph+) and walking back to his
car/trailer,
he tripped and landed on his elbow. It blew up like it'd been hit
with a
sledgehammer. For a full year he could barely use his arm and even
now he
still can't straighten it.

So that's two useless elbows he's got now:-)) (He did bust the other
on his
bike a few years earlier)


Beav