Start Anywhere Cylinder (SSA rules proposal)

C'mon Mark, read and think before you blow up. The rule says "exit the
cylinder." You can't bump the start gaggles in the cylinder if you
have exited the cylinder.

And give the RC a little credit for intelligence. They've thought
about this problem. I believe the precise rule the RC is working on
insists on taking your last exit from the cylinder precisely to avoid
traffic problems. They have thought about only allowing starts from
the "front half" of the circle. I know they decided against "best fix
in the start area" precisely to avoid this traffic problem. They have
thought hard about it, and any rule they end up with will address this
obvious problem. They're not dumb, you know.

Here's the advantage of taking distance from the exit point. In the
current system a single point is optimal -- the point of the circle
closest to the first turn. This focuses traffic and gives rise to
the huge pre start gaggle we all know and love.

If you get credit for the extra distance that you achieve, starting
say 1/4 of the way around the start circle, then you can avoid the
huge gaggle with no penalty. You can also start directly from a good
thermal, or start at the point closest to the cloudstreet out on
course, without worrying about losing the 2-3 miles relative to the
optimal point. How relaxing.

It becomes just like starting from a line -- there is no single
optimal point. Every start point is "just as close" to the first turn.
Lots of people want a line for this reason -- Dave Mockler campaigned
for RC precisely on this. With this little change you get all the
benefits of starting on a line, and none of the disadvantages:
everyone is within 5 miles of the home airport, and there is no upwind
end.

This change also reduces the amount of calculation and figuring you
have to do. With the current rule, the optimal start point also
depends on wind. I know the secret formula for that, do you? If the
last thermal is far from the optimal point, you have to figure out
whether it's better to glide to the front of the circle, losing
altitude, or leave where you are, losing distance. I know that formula
too. Do you? All of this disappears in this nice new idea.

If something is better, why in the world tie yourself to not using it
for 3 years? I notice few pilots insisting on 3 year moratoriums for
new varios or new gliders!

John Cochrane

C'mon Mark, read and think before you blow up. The rule says "exit the
cylinder." You can't bump the start gaggles in the cylinder if you
have exited the cylinder.


Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in
mind.
I spoke with P7 during region 12 and was left with the understanding that the
rule would allow scoring from the most favorable start point, just as the most
favorable turn points in the turn cylinders are scored. The poll question does
not provide enough info about the proposed new rule for one to give an educated
answer. This can be said about several of the other questions, btw.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

Mark Navarre wrote:

Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in
mind.


Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll:

16. “Start Anywhere” Cylinder

Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit
point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s perimeter
closest to your first turnpoint.

16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above
question.


I spoke with P7 during region 12 and was left with the understanding that the
rule would allow scoring from the most favorable start point, just as the most
favorable turn points in the turn cylinders are scored.


I can't imagine what I might have said to leave you with that
understanding (are you sure you weren't talking to someone else?) It is
true that the Rules Committee has considered an "area start" proposal in
the past, but rejected it for several reasons, as you can see in item 33
of the 2001 Rules Committee Meeting Minutes:

33 Area start
"Sounds simple but has several potential problems. Needs more thought.
There would be a tendency to start at the back of the cylinder and fly
through the pre-start gaggles on course. This could present a safety
problem. Disadvantage in pilot not knowing when they started. Likely
requires graphical display to not be disadvantaged. With multipoint
start option, prestart congestion will be reduced. Resolution: No action
at this time - table for future consideration."

BTW, past Rules Committee minutes are archived at:
http://www.serve.com/BSA/sra.htm


The poll question does
not provide enough info about the proposed new rule for one to give an educated
answer.


Is it the purpose of an opinion poll to educate everyone thoroughly on
every aspect of a rules issue, so they can form an opinion? Or is the
purpose to allow people to provide input on those rules issues about
which they have an opinion?

It is true that I included more "pro & con" in last year's poll, but
that also generated some criticism. You can't please everyone, I guess.
Some people thought it was just ducky that I listed arguments supporting
their viewpoint on an issue, but were livid that I also listed arguments
supporting the opposing viewpoint.

I do believe that it is important to keep a poll as brief as possible,
if you want people to wade through it. Last week I received a "Client
Satisfaction Survey" from my long-time stockbroker. It was 8 pages long.
I didn't want to spend the time, so I chucked it in the trash.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee

A slight clarification to Gary's post: As I read it, the proposal in
the survey is NOT the same as the "area start" that the RC considered
and wisely rejected. The area start let you start from any point IN
the start circle. This one lets you start at any cylinder EXIT point.
The reason for the difference is exactly to separate people who have
started from the pre-start gaggle. (Well, at least as much as in
current rules. Often the prestart gaggle is outside the gate, so
people start and return to bump the gaggle.)

John Cochrane

.....
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

.....
item 33
of the 2001 Rules Committee Meeting Minutes:

33 Area start
"Sounds simple but has several potential problems. Needs more thought.
There would be a tendency to start at the back of the cylinder and fly
through the pre-start gaggles on course. This could present a safety
problem. Disadvantage in pilot not knowing when they started. Likely
requires graphical display to not be disadvantaged. With multipoint
start option, prestart congestion will be reduced. Resolution: No action
at this time - table for future consideration."

John

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.

The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.

I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on, I guess you need to be on the rules
committee to really know what people mean. If only you would let ALL
SSA members be eligible for the position.


Dale Kramer
K1






(John Cochrane) wrote in message . com...
A slight clarification to Gary's post: As I read it, the proposal in
the survey is NOT the same as the "area start" that the RC considered
and wisely rejected. The area start let you start from any point IN
the start circle. This one lets you start at any cylinder EXIT point.
The reason for the difference is exactly to separate people who have
started from the pre-start gaggle. (Well, at least as much as in
current rules. Often the prestart gaggle is outside the gate, so
people start and return to bump the gaggle.)

John Cochrane

....
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Dale Kramer wrote:

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.


The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point",
not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point".


The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.


Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first
leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of
"best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that
applies to any gps start gate design.


I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on


The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a
proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts
it as law.

The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion
poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may
communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee.
The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors,
when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The
Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has
occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules
Committee.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee


16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

My point is simply that poll questions seem to be written on too
general a basis.

Intentionally or not, the committee has asked a question that can't be
answered without other (perhaps more controversial aspects) questions
brought forward.

I understand that the results of the poll do not mean we have changed
a rule.

I believe the committee does use the results to justify rule changes
if and when they agree with what the committee finally decides.

If, next year, we have a rule that allows 'last exit' distance
measurement in the start cylinder, I for one hope never to hear that
the members have given their opinion on the rule.

Dale Kramer
K1


Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
Dale Kramer wrote:

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.


The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point",
not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point".


The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.


Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first
leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of
"best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that
applies to any gps start gate design.


I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on


The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a
proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts
it as law.

The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion
poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may
communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee.
The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors,
when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The
Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has
occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules
Committee.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee


16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

P7 replies:

Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness
in
mind.


Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll:

16. “Start Anywhere� Cylinder

Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit
point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s perimeter
closest to your first turnpoint.

16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above
question.


The text of the current rule reads:
10.8.5.3 A start occurs each time a sailplane exits a Start Cylinder (either
through the side or the top); at least one fix must lie within the cylinder.

One would think that the definition of "exit" in the poll question is the same
as in the rules. The question could have said:
"16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point on the perimeter of the start cylinder?"

Thanks for the clarification, I will now edit my poll. I suppose I could have
asked one of the rules committee members, but then my 2 or 3 fellow nitpickers
would still be in the dark.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

Now I'm confused. If I exit through the back top, that's an exit. If
I then descend into the cylinder and bump all the pre-start thermals,
my subsequent exit invalidates the previous start out the top? If so,
then what keeps my trip through the start cylinder on the fifth leg
from invalidating my race to that point? Intentions?

Jonathan


Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
Mark Navarre wrote:

Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in
mind.


Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll:

16. ?Start Anywhere? Cylinder

Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit
point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder?s perimeter
closest to your first turnpoint.

16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above
question.


I spoke with P7 during region 12 and was left with the understanding that the
rule would allow scoring from the most favorable start point, just as the most
favorable turn points in the turn cylinders are scored.


I can't imagine what I might have said to leave you with that
understanding (are you sure you weren't talking to someone else?) It is
true that the Rules Committee has considered an "area start" proposal in
the past, but rejected it for several reasons, as you can see in item 33
of the 2001 Rules Committee Meeting Minutes:

33 Area start
"Sounds simple but has several potential problems. Needs more thought.
There would be a tendency to start at the back of the cylinder and fly
through the pre-start gaggles on course. This could present a safety
problem. Disadvantage in pilot not knowing when they started. Likely
requires graphical display to not be disadvantaged. With multipoint
start option, prestart congestion will be reduced. Resolution: No action
at this time - table for future consideration."

BTW, past Rules Committee minutes are archived at:
http://www.serve.com/BSA/sra.htm


The poll question does
not provide enough info about the proposed new rule for one to give an educated
answer.


Is it the purpose of an opinion poll to educate everyone thoroughly on
every aspect of a rules issue, so they can form an opinion? Or is the
purpose to allow people to provide input on those rules issues about
which they have an opinion?

It is true that I included more "pro & con" in last year's poll, but
that also generated some criticism. You can't please everyone, I guess.
Some people thought it was just ducky that I listed arguments supporting
their viewpoint on an issue, but were livid that I also listed arguments
supporting the opposing viewpoint.

I do believe that it is important to keep a poll as brief as possible,
if you want people to wade through it. Last week I received a "Client
Satisfaction Survey" from my long-time stockbroker. It was 8 pages long.
I didn't want to spend the time, so I chucked it in the trash.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee

John and Gary

I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be
used, not the last.

I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints
thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half
of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll.

Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start
location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg
there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that
they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and
out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not
chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on
course all the time.

Keep it simple and take the best exit point.

Dale Kramer
K1



Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
Mark Navarre wrote:

Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in
mind.


Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll:

16. ?Start Anywhere? Cylinder

Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit
point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder?s perimeter
closest to your first turnpoint.

16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above
question.