Motorgliders (long)

In article ,
says...
in article , Eric Greenwell at
wrote on 2003/09/28 17:54:

Sure, having a motor is a great training tool. But once you've learned
enough that you think you are competitive as a _glider_, not a powered ship,
then enter competitions for _gliders_ and leave the training wheels at home.

And then there is Ron Tabery, who flew his ASW 22 BLE, with the engine,
in the Open Class nationals this year. Even though he is a five time
member of the US Team, including the 2003 team, we look forward to the
day he learns how to do it, and discards his "training wheels".

And your point is what?

That even really experienced and competent pilots fly motorgliders in
contests. I was hoping the original poster would reconsider his concept
that a motor was equivalent to "training wheels".

Why put motor Gliders up against real Gliders in competition?

Because motor gliders are real gliders, at least according to the SSA,
the FAA, and the IGC. For example, my ASH 26 E meets the requirements of
the Sports class, the 18 Meter class, and the Open class.

Do we really
need yet another layer of rules just to make that possible?

The "layer" is already in the rules. In total, the portions related to
motorized sailplanes (the term used in the rules) is about one page of
the 44 making up the Regional rules. I assume it is about the same for
the Sports Class and the National rules, but haven't measured it. About
1/3 of this amount basically says "disable it, seal it, or use a flight
recorder with engine monitoring". The rest are mostly one line
parenthetical additions scattered throughout the rules. Take a look at
the rules - the motorized sailplane parts aren't the confusing or
difficult parts, and you can ignore them if you are flying a motorless
glider.

I hear that motor gliders are all the rage these days, so why not organize
Motor Glider only events and avoid adding to the complication?

The Auxiliary-powered Sailplane Association (www.motorglider.org) does
hold a motorglider Nationals every year, but for many pilots, it isn't
convenient to attend it, not everyone likes the handicapped format, many
of us enjoy racing with the friends we flew with before we owned a
motorglider, and doesn't it lead to a place on the US Team (like Ron
Tabery wants). There aren't enough motorglider pilots interested in
contests to justify having a separate contest in each region.
Motorgliders have been included in US competitions for many years, so it
appears the "complication" is quite manageable.


No wonder soaring is not attracting and holding the number of participants
that it should.

I am baffled by this statement. How does having motorized sailplanes
flying in our contests _reduce_ the number of participants?

--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA

Eric wrote

There aren't enough motorglider pilots interested in
contests to justify having a separate contest in each region.

There IS enough at Ephrata to have a regional MG class. Didn't you say you had
10? That's bigger than any other class in region 8, isn't it? :)

JJ Sinclair

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message

"Jack" wrote in message

all manner of complaining snipped

Once the motor is tucked away, my 26e or S10-VT look every bit as pretty in
the sky as most other gliders. Hawks and eagles still fly close in thermals
and don't think of diving away as they do when I try to snuggle up close in
the Champ. It matters not what you say about "training wheels", MGs are
sailplanes too, just with the ability to go places and explore where an
engineless glider could never go without great difficulty. Not because I can
start the engine and save myself over unlandable terrain (most MG pilots
don't fly that way), but rather because I need no tow plane at remote
airports.

It is apparent that despite the cost, complexity and weight disadvantages of
motorgliders, most purchasers of new sailplanes feel the advantages are
compelling. And so the majority buy new ships with motors. Will there be a
day when engineless gliders are the minority? I must admit that I'm not
looking forward to that as I love most all gliders and power planes too!

Soaring in the US is shrinking. We can take the path espoused by some, "keep
'em separate", or we can we can take the more logical approach, embrace
change and do what's needed to stay as one. The old concept "In unity
there's strength" still applies. Fighting amongst ourselves is really dumb.
--
bumper - ZZ
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
to reply, the last half is right to left






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"In unity
there's strength" still applies. Fighting amongst ourselves is really dumb.

John,
I agree, completely.I only wish to make the rules we follow in competition,
fair to all who enter the contest. We need MG's in our sport, the only question
is, what's fair?
:)
JJ Sinclair

Soaring in the US is shrinking. We can take the path espoused by some, "keep
'em separate", or we can we can take the more logical approach, embrace
change and do what's needed to stay as one. The old concept "In unity
there's strength" still applies. Fighting amongst ourselves is really dumb.

Interesting that you have viewed these discussionas on RAS as fighting
amongst ourselves. I'm sure some of us have viewed it as a means of
trying to assure that those pilots voting in the SRA poll can have the
benefit of knowing both sides of the story. The motor glider pilots
wish to give the impression that the rule changes they would like are
quite reasonable and fair. On the other hand, some of the more
knowledgeable non-motorized pilots believe that granting further
concessions to motor gliders, through new rule changes, would unjustifiably
give the motor gliders an even bigger advantage in competiton.

Soarin

Interesting that you have viewed these discussionas on RAS as fighting
amongst ourselves. I'm sure some of us have viewed it as a means of
trying to assure that those pilots voting in the SRA poll can have the
benefit of knowing both sides of the story. The motor glider pilots
wish to give the impression that the rule changes they would like are
quite reasonable and fair. On the other hand, some of the more
knowledgeable non-motorized pilots believe that granting further
concessions to motor gliders, through new rule changes, would unjustifiably
give the motor gliders an even bigger advantage in competiton.

It is crucial to recognize that there is a primal struggle going on
here. If the anti-MGs prevail we will leave (I certainly will). I
believe we have more than adequately answered the critics to any
impartially fair minded competitor. Now, there will be those that
totally reject the concept of allowing MGs in ANY contest. So be it.
If that group succeeds there will be a growing exodus of MG pilots
from competition soaring and, ultimately, from the SSA. This isn't a
threat; it is just natural for someone who is told that they are
unwelcome to leave and go where they are welcome. The key issue is
what does the majority of the SSA feel; not just a vocal minority on
RAS. Personally, I think the majority is inclusive, but I really don't
know.

Tom

It is crucial to recognize that there is a primal struggle going on
here. If the anti-MGs prevail we will leave (I certainly will). I
believe we have more than adequately answered the critics to any
impartially fair minded competitor. Now, there will be those that
totally reject the concept of allowing MGs in ANY contest. So be it.
If that group succeeds there will be a growing exodus of MG pilots
from competition soaring and, ultimately, from the SSA. This isn't a
threat; it is just natural for someone who is told that they are
unwelcome to leave and go where they are welcome. The key issue is
what does the majority of the SSA feel; not just a vocal minority on
RAS. Personally, I think the majority is inclusive, but I really don't
know.
Tom

Come on Tom stick with the facts. The overwhelming ammount of anti
motor glider postings have NOT been pushing to prohibit motor gliders
from being allowed in contests. What they have a problem with is the
concept that motor gliders not only want to fly in the same classes
with non motor gliders. But that the motor glider pilots also want
the rules to be changed to suite themselves.

Telling us that unless you get your way you will quit flying contestss
and eventually the SSA. Is alot like saying unless we let you play by
your rules you will take your bat and go home.

Soarin

(Soarin) wrote in message
Interesting that you have viewed these discussionas on RAS as fighting
amongst ourselves. I'm sure some of us have viewed it as a means of
trying to assure that those pilots voting in the SRA poll can have the
benefit of knowing both sides of the story. The motor glider pilots
wish to give the impression that the rule changes they would like are
quite reasonable and fair. On the other hand, some of the more
knowledgeable non-motorized pilots believe that granting further
concessions to motor gliders, through new rule changes, would unjustifiably
give the motor gliders an even bigger advantage in competiton.

"Motorglider pilots are selfish and deceptive. Non-motorglider pilots
are knowledgeable, and they know that motorglider pilots are selfish
and deceptive."

If this is "knowing both sides of the story", then "fighting amongst
ourselves" ought to be really entertaining.

- Rich Carr

in article ,
John Morgan at wrote on 2003/10/07 11:36:

...MGs are sailplanes too...despite the cost, complexity and weight
disadvantages of motorgliders.

The point is that competition between gliders using motors and gliders not
using motors makes no sense, except perhaps in the sense of an exhibition.
Why not work up a scale of handicaps which include the 182 and invite that
ubiquitous Cessna to join as well? Just think of the potential for swelling
the ranks of the _Soaring_ Society of America.


It is apparent that, most purchasers of new sailplanes feel the advantages are
compelling. And so the majority buy new ships with motors.

And the majority will probably not use them in competition, so what has that
to do with the topic at hand?


Soaring in the US is shrinking. We can take the path espoused by some, "keep
'em separate", or we can we can take the more logical approach, embrace
change and do what's needed to stay as one.

I suspect most sailplane pilots, motorized or not, couldn't care less about
the arcane rules of competition, nor whether MGs and non-MGs go head to
head. If you equate membership size with success, then your arguement can't
pssibly have anything to do with the structure of competitive sailplane
events.

If shrinking participation in soaring and the rise of the Motor Glider are
occurring simultaneously, how would you relate those facts WRT to possible
cause and effect?



Jack

In article ,
says...
Eric wrote

There aren't enough motorglider pilots interested in
contests to justify having a separate contest in each region.

There IS enough at Ephrata to have a regional MG class. Didn't you say you had
10? That's bigger than any other class in region 8, isn't it? :)

Typically, we've had 5 motorized sailplanes entered in various classes.
While 5 gliders is enough for a class, there is no Regional class for
"motorgliders". So, does Region 8 invent our own, non-sanctioned MG
class, or let these SSA members fly in the classes that are already
there in the SSA sanctioned contest put on by their region? In fact, we
have to let them fly in those classes, since they meet all the
requirements for them.

A separate MG class, however done, would likely cause a problem: the
Open class we normally run would have less than 5 entrants, and have to
be cancelled.

--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA