Landout Laws

With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
offering $100 for several reasons:

1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.

2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."

3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
with a substantial demand.

I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.

Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."

The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
heard a word.

The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
and extract revenge!

It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.

My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
a claim, etc.

And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
you should get your family involved in soaring.

If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
win-win for everyone.

These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative.

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden

* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
om...

(trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
SOARING.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:

"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
om...

(trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff)

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden


This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a
little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in
SOARING.

I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

....snippage...

I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).

Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

TIA
Martin


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

....snippage...


I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).


Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

....snippage...


I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).


Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:32:35 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:


Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

....snippage...


I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).


Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.

I've no problem with that! Thanks.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:16:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

....snippage...


I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief
devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that
one of the Top 5).


Any chance of re-posting this?

I've just tried a Google Groups search and that shows nothing posted
by Chip before 16 Feb 2002 and nothing on that subject since then.

If it's OK with Chip, I'll repost it, but I'm asking his permission
first in case he wants to repost it himself. It's a classic posting, and
I know it's technically in the public domain, but I'd feel better if
Chip OKs it first.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Wonderful post. One wee addition.

A friend of mine swore by a wrinkle to the "offer to take the owner's
picture with the glider using

your digital camera and email him the photo" strategy. His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally! Well worth the risk to his glider, he figured, to have someone ready to be disappointed should his/her father take a hard line with this extraordinary visitor.

Bruce


Chip Bearden wrote:

With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
offering $100 for several reasons:

1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.

2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."

3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
with a substantial demand.

I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.

Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."

The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
heard a word.

The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
and extract revenge!

It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.

My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
a claim, etc.

And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
you should get your family involved in soaring.

If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
win-win for everyone.

These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative.

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden



* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:29:58 UTC, Bruce Friesen
wrote:

: His idea was to get the farmer's youngest _kid_ in the cockpit, take a photo, and promise to send a copy. Instant enthusiastic friend and ally!

I always carry a spare gliding club T-shirt in the back for
child-bribery purposes. I know someone who carries a box of chocolates
for the farmer's wife as well, but even in the UK I think it can get a
bit warm for that ...

Ian

--