Sparrowhawk and airtow

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
No winch? Buy or build one.

In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
land after release? Right!

Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
letting it fall would cause problems.

A confined runway surrounded by trees isn't a great option for airtow either
unless the tug can always keep the glider in a position to return to the
runway in the event of a premature launch failure. Winch launch has an
advantage here because the glider is always in a position to either land
straight ahead or, if it is too high for that, fly a short pattern.


The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.

There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.

True. However, there are also lots of places where it is an option. In
fact, many more than most US pilots suppose.

There is a tendency among pilots not familiar with winch launch to think up
all the ways that improper procedures can screw up the operation and little
appreciation of how a well disciplined operation can co-exist with other
traffic. Winch launch operations co-exist with air-tow and power traffic at
many European glider operations. (In response to the preceding point I had
a US pilot blurt, "But Europeans are smarter than we are".) Could be, they
use winches.

Bill Daniels

We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have no
problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when the
wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using our
tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow because
the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land straight
ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello thinks
it's probably safer too.


"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:N%kzc.105626$Ly.66557@attbi_s01...

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
No winch? Buy or build one.

In the northeast US we have lots of trees and our airport is a
relatively narrow rectangular plot of cleared land surrounded by trees -
lots of trees. In any kind of cross wind, where would the winch rope
land after release? Right!

Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
letting it fall would cause problems.

A confined runway surrounded by trees isn't a great option for airtow
either
unless the tug can always keep the glider in a position to return to the
runway in the event of a premature launch failure. Winch launch has an
advantage here because the glider is always in a position to either land
straight ahead or, if it is too high for that, fly a short pattern.


The glider grass runway is next to the paved runway used by the power
crowd. A paved taxiway leading from the paved rwy to the ramp crosses
the grass runway at midfield. The airport manager would, properly, be
not inclined to permit winch launching across an active taxiway.

There are lots of cases where a winch is not an option.

True. However, there are also lots of places where it is an option. In
fact, many more than most US pilots suppose.

There is a tendency among pilots not familiar with winch launch to think
up
all the ways that improper procedures can screw up the operation and
little
appreciation of how a well disciplined operation can co-exist with other
traffic. Winch launch operations co-exist with air-tow and power traffic
at
many European glider operations. (In response to the preceding point I
had
a US pilot blurt, "But Europeans are smarter than we are".) Could be,
they
use winches.

Bill Daniels

Costello thinks it's probably safer too.

Interesting statement... how is that so?

BT

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message ...
We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have no
problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when the
wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using our
tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow because
the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land straight
ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello thinks
it's probably safer too.

Gary,
What type of sailplane to you tow?
What type of pay out system do you use ?
Dan

We are towing a 2-33 mostly. A couple of friends of mime built the winch
from plans they got from Barry Steele at Appropriate Engineering

As far as Costello thinking it's safer, that came from conversations I had
with them while I was obtaining insurance for my operation here in Oregon
and there is no additional charge to cover the addition of the winch
operation.


"Dan Goldman" wrote in message
om...
"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
We use a pay-out winch here in Hood River, Oregon at an airport and have
no
problem with power traffic at all. We usually are using the winch when
the
wind has picked up and there is almost no power traffic at these time at
all. We launch from the taxi way and have the required flashing yellow
light on our tow vehicle. It is much more neighbor friendly than using
our
tow plane. I am convinced that it is much safer than an aero tow
because
the climb is so steep that you either have plenty of room to land
straight
ahead or plenty of altitude to make a 360 degree pattern. Costello
thinks
it's probably safer too.

Gary,
What type of sailplane to you tow?
What type of pay out system do you use ?
Dan

Bill Daniels wrote:
...

Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance that
letting it fall would cause problems.
...


OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
cable break.

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
...

Actually, the rope would wind up on the winch drum after release since
normal procedure is to wind it all the way in if there is any chance
that
letting it fall would cause problems.
...


OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
cable break.

True, but if breaks are likely to cause abnormal problems, you pay more
attention to preventing them. The German tests of Dyneema plastic cable are
now well beyond 1000 launches without a single cable break. Based on test
results I have seen, it looks like 5000 break free launches may be possible
with reasonable care of the rope.

Bill Daniels

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:12:04 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:

OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
cable break.

Cable break IS as normal procedure.

Bye
Andreas

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:12:04 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:

OK, but problems come when you can't follow the normal procedure, e.g.
cable break.

Cable break IS as normal procedure.

Bye
Andreas

Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

"Andreas Maurer wrote:

Cable break IS as normal procedure.


Guys, check the German Dyneema tests. They aren't getting cable breaks.


That's abnormal!


Jack