ELT Mandatory ?

Jim you have a good point that it is the pilot's choice. But at a
contest the Organizers are required to make every effort to locate you,
so they should be given the best chance of doing so. It may not be your
problem when all is said and done, but a lot of people, including family
members and those soaring friends that might want to spend hours/days
searching the ridges of the appalachians (or swamps of Florida), would
definitely appreciate you investing in one more piece of equipment.
Compared to the hardships that could be endured, an ELT is a simple
investment. Just re-read John Good's reports from Mifflin and consider
what those searchers would still be going through had they not known
where to look for Peter.
And even for non-contest pilots this is an important consideration. If
you are out by yourself on a x-country flight, who is going to know
where to look in case something goes wrong. Those of us that fly in
terrain such as the appalachians have definitely had the reason for
flying with ELTs brought to our attention over and over. But its also a
good thing to have installed for those that fly in any terrain.

Thank you KG, UH and others for making those many safety talks about the
advantages of having an ELT installed and how best to install them in
the various types of gliders.

Dirk

Asw-20 "E" - yes ELT equipped



Wallace Berry wrote:

Absolutely! Well said Jim.

In article , Jim Culp
wrote:




Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of gliding,

Please consider carefully. What is our nature? Individual;
or care from cradle to the grave?

Equipment should be pilot's choice, with pilot weighing
risks and outcome potentials.

Dirk Elber wrote in message

Thank you KG, UH and others for making those many safety talks about the
advantages of having an ELT installed and how best to install them in
the various types of gliders.

I'm sure that the fact that KG and UH sell these things has no bearing
on the matter at all, eh?

RD

Romeo Delta wrote:
Dirk Elber wrote in message


Thank you KG, UH and others for making those many safety talks about the
advantages of having an ELT installed and how best to install them in
the various types of gliders.


I'm sure that the fact that KG and UH sell these things has no bearing
on the matter at all, eh?

If you think their claims are false, please say so and indicate why.
Insinuating that greed drives their efforts is gratuitous; besides, I'm
not aware that UH (Hank Nixon) sells soaring equipment.

If they believe these things are useful to the soaring community, it
makes sense to offer them. Or should they refuse to sell safety related
items, so suspicious pilots will be inclined to think they mean it when
they say the items are useful?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Mr. Greenwell:

Please be advised that I just used the ammo provided by the previous
poster. Certainly you must agree that it's only human nature to turn
up the sales pitch just a notch when justifying the need for something
that you just so happen to sell--hence, my voiced scepticism. I'm sure
KG is a big boy and can handle it. UH was unfortunately fragged by
association--a thousand pardons.

To say it another way, I, for one, am not otherwise convinced that
anyone who sells such "stuff" for a living preaches about it solely
out of the goodness of his heart (which was my take of the post
previous to my former). To place someone up on a pedistal for doing
so is professing naivity.

Regardless, the bottom line is an ELT, from an operational
perspective, is OPTIONAL equipment. If some private airport owner
feels justified in his mind for whatever reason to require ELTs as a
condition to fly from his airfield--then that's his business (as well
the business of any pilots accepting of such dictation), except that
such nonsense is capable of permeating out to affect the soaring
community as a whole at which time it is past the point of becoming
everyone's business.

So pardon me if I voice my concern at this potential eventuality.
Soaring is expensive enough without some yea-hoo in VA starting a
costly trend on a whim. What's the next mandate to enjoy the
SIMPLICITY of soaring? Transponders, weather radar, radar altimeters?

If this pilot makes the conscience choice to fly without an ELT, it is
done so at MY accepted peril. Matter of fact, every time I have ever
made the decision to takeoff [solo] it has always been and will
continue to be at MY own personal peril. And I don't take lightly
anyone's attempt to usurp the experience, ability, and authority I
have to make such a decision.

I'm sorry that someone crashed while flying a contest (BTW having an
ELT apparently didn't stop that from happening). But should that
necessarily result in mandating we all should now run out and buy ELTs
[as a condition to compete in a soaring contest]? Maybe we should
just not task flying near mountains. Heck, let's just stop flying
altogether 'cause it's inherently dangerous. No thousand dollar piece
of equipment can change that fact.

RD

Romeo Delta wrote:
Mr. Greenwell:

Please be advised that I just used the ammo provided by the previous
poster. Certainly you must agree that it's only human nature to turn
up the sales pitch just a notch when justifying the need for something
that you just so happen to sell

Yes, but it's just speculation on your part, as is my suggestion he
sells them BECAUSE he believes in them.

--hence, my voiced scepticism.

It is still an unnecessary insinuation: we should argue the facts of the
situation, not speculate about someone's motives.

I'm sure
KG is a big boy and can handle it. UH was unfortunately fragged by
association--a thousand pardons.

To say it another way, I, for one, am not otherwise convinced that
anyone who sells such "stuff" for a living preaches about it solely
out of the goodness of his heart (which was my take of the post
previous to my former). To place someone up on a pedistal for doing
so is professing naivity.

All irrelevant to the value of ELTs, true or not.


Regardless, the bottom line is an ELT, from an operational
perspective, is OPTIONAL equipment.

So is a parachute, but contests require them, and we wear them.

If some private airport owner
feels justified in his mind for whatever reason to require ELTs as a
condition to fly from his airfield--then that's his business (as well
the business of any pilots accepting of such dictation), except that
such nonsense is capable of permeating out to affect the soaring
community as a whole at which time it is past the point of becoming
everyone's business.

So pardon me if I voice my concern at this potential eventuality.
Soaring is expensive enough without some yea-hoo in VA starting a
costly trend on a whim.

Would you consider the situation in a different light if you knew the
"yea-hoo" has supported soaring in the most substantial way for decades,
by providing an airfield, towplanes, hangars, and clubhouses? Take a
look at this link:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/VA85
AirNav: New Castle International Airport

Does that look like a facility provided by a "yea-hoo"? It exists to
serve soaring!

My point: I can't believe a man like Lanier Frantz is doing this on a
whim. Whether we like the idea or not, it comes from someone who
deserves to be taken seriously.

What's the next mandate to enjoy the
SIMPLICITY of soaring? Transponders, weather radar, radar altimeters?

If this pilot makes the conscience choice to fly without an ELT, it is
done so at MY accepted peril. Matter of fact, every time I have ever
made the decision to takeoff [solo] it has always been and will
continue to be at MY own personal peril.

Of course, at a contest, you only have veto authority - you don't get to
pick just any time.

And I don't take lightly
anyone's attempt to usurp the experience, ability, and authority I
have to make such a decision.

They aren't exactly telling you how to fly your glider. The ELT is just
a lump that sits in the back and doesn't do anything until you crash.


I'm sorry that someone crashed while flying a contest (BTW having an
ELT apparently didn't stop that from happening). But should that
necessarily result in mandating we all should now run out and buy ELTs
[as a condition to compete in a soaring contest]?

Keep some perspective: it's just for New Castle, not all contests.

Maybe we should
just not task flying near mountains.

There are World champions that have argued that.

Heck, let's just stop flying
altogether 'cause it's inherently dangerous. No thousand dollar piece
of equipment can change that fact.

And none of the folks involved have claimed it will, but they'd sure
like to mitigate the results when the "experience, ability, and
authority" of the pilot aren't equal to the danger.

Did I mention ELTs are only $200-$300?

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric:

The man may be a benevolent yea-hoo, but if the yackity-yack airport
authority at my public airport gets wind of this and makes having an
ELT a condition to operate glider citing precedence, then he's back to
plain old yea-hoo status.

Yes, $200-300 now. But how about when the FAA gets tired of all the
cheap ELTs going off from hard landings, or changes the rules (never
happens), or a manufacturer goes ot of business, or...
and were eventually stuck with the $1000+ a pop deal.

And what then is next? TCAS?

Ed cited liability concerns in his first sentence. But all of a
sudden discussing that aspect obscurates the matter. GMAFB!

Your stance on the matter referencing your previous posts seems to
question the necessity of this ELT mandate. But this last post of
your's seems to have you flip-flopping on the matter. What is your
definitive position (or do you just relish the opportunity to change
sides as a chance to argue)?

Regards,

Ray

Romeo Delta wrote:

Eric:

The man may be a benevolent yea-hoo,

My point is that he is not a yea-hoo.

but if the yackity-yack airport
authority at my public airport gets wind of this and makes having an
ELT a condition to operate glider citing precedence, then he's back to
plain old yea-hoo status.

Get real, please. Your public airport authority doesn't want to get into
the business of policing aircraft for equipment the Feds don't even
require. If they want to worry about things, there are much larger
concerns, starting with a towing operation.


Yes, $200-300 now. But how about when the FAA gets tired of all the
cheap ELTs going off from hard landings, or changes the rules (never
happens)

This part has already happened and the rules are in place for 2009.

, or a manufacturer goes ot of business, or...

If this happens, your ELT will continue to work. If it needs repairs
(unlikely - these things are supposed withstand crashes), buy one from
another manufacturer.

and were eventually stuck with the $1000+ a pop deal.

Who knows what the price will be 5 years from now? A guess is the
requirement for them will lead to expanded production and lower prices.
In any case, the old ones are currently allowed after that, but won't be
routinely monitored.


And what then is next? TCAS?

No.


Ed cited liability concerns in his first sentence. But all of a
sudden discussing that aspect obscurates the matter. GMAFB!

Your stance on the matter referencing your previous posts seems to
question the necessity of this ELT mandate. But this last post of
your's seems to have you flip-flopping on the matter. What is your
definitive position (or do you just relish the opportunity to change
sides as a chance to argue)?


My position:

- the airport owner is within his rights to require an ELT as a
condition of use
- There is no additional liability to the airport owner or organizers if
gliders are NOT required to have them
- ELTs are effective in gliders
- Requiring them at New Castle contests will not lead to their
requirement at other airports around the country
- it is very unlikely other contests will require them, as the New
Castle situation is unique

I have no opinion on whether ELTs should be required at New Castle,
because I am not familiar with the situation there.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

STOP THE PRESS: LATE BREAKING NEWS:......LANIER FRANTZ DECLARED "YEA-HOO IN
VA"
Hot Dog! I can't wait to post this news on the bulletin board at the Tow
Plane Tavern at NCI.
Thank you Romeo Delta for this delicious quote!!
(it would be even funnier if the subject matter were not so serious).
Ed Byars
PS...when flaming a Byars be sure to specify. My head's bloody enough and I
don't need more hits meant for my son Guy. And I'm sure vicey-versy.

"Romeo Delta" wrote in message
om...
Mr. Greenwell:

Please be advised that I just used the ammo provided by the previous
poster. Certainly you must agree that it's only human nature to turn
up the sales pitch just a notch when justifying the need for something
that you just so happen to sell--hence, my voiced scepticism. I'm sure
KG is a big boy and can handle it. UH was unfortunately fragged by
association--a thousand pardons.

To say it another way, I, for one, am not otherwise convinced that
anyone who sells such "stuff" for a living preaches about it solely
out of the goodness of his heart (which was my take of the post
previous to my former). To place someone up on a pedistal for doing
so is professing naivity.

Regardless, the bottom line is an ELT, from an operational
perspective, is OPTIONAL equipment. If some private airport owner
feels justified in his mind for whatever reason to require ELTs as a
condition to fly from his airfield--then that's his business (as well
the business of any pilots accepting of such dictation), except that
such nonsense is capable of permeating out to affect the soaring
community as a whole at which time it is past the point of becoming
everyone's business.

So pardon me if I voice my concern at this potential eventuality.
Soaring is expensive enough without some yea-hoo in VA starting a
costly trend on a whim. What's the next mandate to enjoy the
SIMPLICITY of soaring? Transponders, weather radar, radar altimeters?

If this pilot makes the conscience choice to fly without an ELT, it is
done so at MY accepted peril. Matter of fact, every time I have ever
made the decision to takeoff [solo] it has always been and will
continue to be at MY own personal peril. And I don't take lightly
anyone's attempt to usurp the experience, ability, and authority I
have to make such a decision.

I'm sorry that someone crashed while flying a contest (BTW having an
ELT apparently didn't stop that from happening). But should that
necessarily result in mandating we all should now run out and buy ELTs
[as a condition to compete in a soaring contest]? Maybe we should
just not task flying near mountains. Heck, let's just stop flying
altogether 'cause it's inherently dangerous. No thousand dollar piece
of equipment can change that fact.

RD