70 kg 31:1 glider is here to stay?

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:20:36 UTC, Jack wrote:

: My club is very much a mutually supportive environment for my soaring
: activities, and there is nothing less complex in aviation that I know
: of than flying sailplanes.

Well, if I want to fly a sailplane in the UK, I have to

a) join a club

b) travel to the club one day on most flyable weekends for a year
until solo, then

c) arrive at the club by 9am or so for a reasonable place on the
flying list

d) depend on a tug pilot/winch driver, and ground crew to get me
airborne

and that's without the additional complications of retrieve crew if I
fly cross country. On the other hand, if I want to fly a paraglider in
the UK I have to

a) take a training course over a few weekends

b) climb up a convenient hll

c) jump off.

OK's a different experience, but it's still flying and if that's the
driving urge, not travelling huge numbers of miles or pole squattng in
wave, but just flying for the love of being off the ground then I am
quite sure that foot launched gliders offer significant reductions in
cost and time required.

: If "cost, complexity and infrastructure" are major impediments to
: soaring for some people I cannot sympathize with them at all.

And that, with all due respect, is the sort of attitude that explains
why gliding is in such trouble. I, on the contrary, have enormous
sympathy for those whose burning desire to fly is thwarted by The
System, and I'm all in favour of making things cheaper and simpler
whenever possible.

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

And that, with all due respect, is the sort of attitude that explains
why gliding is in such trouble. I, on the contrary, have enormous
sympathy for those whose burning desire to fly is thwarted by The
System, and I'm all in favour of making things cheaper and simpler
whenever possible.

Cheaper and simpler is good.

But Hang Gliding is not Para Gliding is not Soaring.

Going first class always costs a little more. Your argument that the
best experience should be available for a price and a degree of effort
commensurate with the most basic experience flies in the face of all
human history, Ian.

Those who whine or "whinge" (UK), about the cost of fast glass, and
yet find a 1-26 or a PW-5 beneath them, those who complain that the
air field is too far away but can't be bothered to move their tent,
and those who can't abide a bit of study and compliance sound a
similar note to yours. Fortunately, the rest of us are too busy flying
to be very concerned about the background noise.


Jack

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:33:47 UTC, Jack wrote:

: Ian Johnston wrote:
:
: And that, with all due respect, is the sort of attitude that explains
: why gliding is in such trouble. I, on the contrary, have enormous
: sympathy for those whose burning desire to fly is thwarted by The
: System, and I'm all in favour of making things cheaper and simpler
: whenever possible.
:
: Cheaper and simpler is good.
:
: But Hang Gliding is not Para Gliding is not Soaring.

I am suret here are hang glider and paraglider pilots who would
disagree.

: Going first class always costs a little more. Your argument that the
: best experience should be available for a price and a degree of effort
: commensurate with the most basic experience flies in the face of all
: human history, Ian.

And since when have I said that? Not only that, it's a very arrogant
assumption to claim that any one of us knows what the "best
experience" is. My point is simply that there are people who love
flying and also want to so it simply or cheaply. I am very happy with
34:1 wood, thank you. Sure, I could spend five times as much on 40:1
glass, but I, personally, would not get five times as much fun out of
it. Others might - that would be their fun, their choice and non of my
business.

: Those who whine or "whinge" (UK), about the cost of fast glass, and
: yet find a 1-26 or a PW-5 beneath them

Who are these people? My point, you may recall, is that having cheap
and cheerful gliders available may well attract people into soaring.
Don't know know anyone who flies a Ka6 or 1-26 who wouldn't fly if it
was Discus or nothing?

:, those who complain that the
: air field is too far away but can't be bothered to move their tent,
: and those who can't abide a bit of study and compliance sound a
: similar note to yours.

You are welcome to say, as I think you are, that real glider pilots
will dedicate every aspect of their lives to flying, and that anyone
who concedes any other pressures or interest isn't worthy of the name.
It's a point of view, I suppose, though not one that I feel would work
very well at UK clubs.

Regards,

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

My point is simply that there are people who love
flying and also want to so it simply or cheaply. I am very happy with
34:1 wood, thank you. Sure, I could spend five times as much on 40:1
glass, but I, personally, would not get five times as much fun out of
it. Others might - that would be their fun, their choice and non of my
business.

Then we find nothing about which to disagree.

Cheaper and more accessible is better, all else being equal.


Jack

----------
Dans l'article
, "Ian
Johnston" a écrit :

...
On the other hand, if I want to fly a paraglider in
the UK I have to

a) take a training course over a few weekends

b) climb up a convenient hll

c) jump off.
...`

You forgot:

a1) buy a paraglider;

c1) have somebody who takes me back from my landing place to
the place where I started and left my car, or make the way
with my feet.

a) may be also much longer than the drive to the next glider
field if you are in very flat land and the next convenient hill
is far away.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:11:04 UTC, "Robert Ehrlich"
wrote:

: ----------
: Dans l'article
: , "Ian
: Johnston" a ‚crit :
:
: ...
: On the other hand, if I want to fly a paraglider in
: the UK I have to
:
: a) take a training course over a few weekends
:
: b) climb up a convenient hll
:
: c) jump off.
: ...`
:
: You forgot:
:
: a1) buy a paraglider;

That is very true. But then, I left out "Buy a glider" as well...in
some cases flying a club glider will be fine, but that tends to make
the wait longer and the flight shorter ...

: c1) have somebody who takes me back from my landing place to
: the place where I started and left my car, or make the way
: with my feet.

If I land out. Same goes for a glider.

: a) may be also much longer than the drive to the next glider
: field if you are in very flat land and the next convenient hill
: is far away.

Or much closer. My gliding club is 100 miles away, and there are good
hills - should I ever choose to risk life and limb in one of those
dratted things - within a few miles of me.

Ian

Ian Johnston wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:11:04 UTC, "Robert Ehrlich"
wrote:

: ----------
: Dans l'article
: , "Ian
: Johnston" a ,crit :
:
: ...
: On the other hand, if I want to fly a paraglider in
: the UK I have to
:
: a) take a training course over a few weekends
:
: b) climb up a convenient hll
:
: c) jump off.
: ...`
:
: You forgot:
:
: a1) buy a paraglider;

That is very true. But then, I left out "Buy a glider" as well...in
some cases flying a club glider will be fine, but that tends to make
the wait longer and the flight shorter ...

Where I am flying, there is also a para-gliding club operating on
a slope on the border of the airfield when sailplanes are not flying.
Most flights in club sailplanes are much longer than paraglider flights.

: c1) have somebody who takes me back from my landing place to
: the place where I started and left my car, or make the way
: with my feet.

If I land out. Same goes for a glider.

As far as I can see here, any hang-glider flight that doesn't remain
over the slope ends by a landout. During the last flying seasons my
number of field landings in a sailplane varied from 1 to 3 per season,
for 4000 to 8000 cross-country flight. Anyway this was to object to
the argument that hang or para gliding don't rely on the assistance
of somebody else. If I fly a sailplane in a club, the assistance for
an outlanding is easy to find, any pilot in the club would do it as I
am willing to do it for him if the inverse happen. If I go alone on the
next hill to jump with a paraglider, I have to make specific provision
for that.


: a) may be also much longer than the drive to the next glider
: field if you are in very flat land and the next convenient hill
: is far away.

Or much closer. My gliding club is 100 miles away, and there are good
hills - should I ever choose to risk life and limb in one of those
dratted things - within a few miles of me.

Ian

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:24:28 UTC, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:

: Ian Johnston wrote:

: That is very true. But then, I left out "Buy a glider" as well...in
: some cases flying a club glider will be fine, but that tends to make
: the wait longer and the flight shorter ...
:
: Where I am flying, there is also a para-gliding club operating on
: a slope on the border of the airfield when sailplanes are not flying.
: Most flights in club sailplanes are much longer than paraglider flights.

That is true. It is, of course, no reason to sneer at paraglider
pilots, who seem to enjoy their sport, and it's even more reason to
get frustrated about the typically short flight time limits on club
gliders ...

Ian

----------
Dans l'article
, "Ian
Johnston" a écrit :

That is true. It is, of course, no reason to sneer at paraglider
pilots, who seem to enjoy their sport, and it's even more reason to
get frustrated about the typically short flight time limits on club
gliders ...


I have no reason to sneer at paraglider pilots, as I have frequent
friendly discussions with these people who are flying here, some of
then are also sailplane pilots. But from these discussions, my conclusion
is that the common opinion that hanggliding is cheaper and easier than
sailplane flying is mainly an illusion that most facts contradict. Several
hangglider pilots agree with me on that. This doesn't mean they all are
going to switch to sailplanes, as one thing remains for su it is much
easier and cheaper to continue in the way you have started, invested and
gained some experience than to switch to another one and restart from
scratch.

In a well managed club, there is no reason that flights should be short
and people get frustrated about that. It is not the case in my club. In
France most clubs encourage long flights by having the flight time after
the 2 or 3 first hours for free, or by proposing unlimited flight time
in the year for a fixed amount payed at the beginning of the season. In
my club there are a very few day in the year when 2 or more pilots have to
share a club glider and so the time of their flight is limited, although
no time limit is imposed and all relies on mutual agrement between the
pilots sharing the glider. But this is rare. In the past, more than 10
years ao, when I was not already member, there was some periods of growth
when shortage of available gliders happened, but the growth in income
generated by the growth in membership allowed in this case the club to
buy new modern gliders (a LS4b and a Discus) to correct for that. All others
glider owned by the club where bought as used gliders and some of them
refinished in the club. Now we are in a phase of declining membership, as
almost everywhere, and the fleet follows, as the number of our gliders
decreased from 25 10 years ago to 19 now, but as there is some hysteresis
between the 2 decreases, most of the time we have more gliders available
than pilots, this is the only good side of a bad thing.