Cheap sailplanes

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4

"Peter Seddon" wrote in message
...

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring,
not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some
of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that
if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting

dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by
the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the
conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever
have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking
with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is
VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last
three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club
so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a
gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4



Go watch Hellingvliegen (Dune gliding) by Nistal Wloczysiak a 17 year old
Dutch Videographer. They winch launch an open cockpit T-31b in the dead of
winter to ridge soar the dunes on the Dutch coast. It's one beautiful
video. Weather isn't stopping youth from participating.

I see plenty of young people that LOVE gliding but can't afford it even with
their parents solid support.

We need to offer youth winch launch and other cost reduction avenues.
Wringing our hands and whining that the sky is falling isn't solving the
problem.

We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:



We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Extremely well said, Bill.

Lennie (Surprised?)

Yep, I'm 24 and I would much rather do anything associated with flying
(even looking at aerofoils or learning more about weather systems) than
going out and getting drunk etc etc etc. Thats fine now and then, but I
don't know how these other guys don't get bored of it.

Justin.

e wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:



We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.


Extremely well said, Bill.

Lennie (Surprised?)

Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been so
bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the two
seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan had
a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying weekends
last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.

Peter.

"Peter Seddon" wrote in message
...

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home
field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
so
bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
two
seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan
had
a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying
weekends
last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.

Peter.



OK, I sympathize. Weather in dear old England is dreadful. I think Al
McDonald has been saying that for years. It's been a pretty wet year here
in Colorado, USA too.

OTOH, this Tuesday I towed from a snow covered runway into wave. At 18,000
feet, I had my finger on the mike button to call Denver Center for clearance
into the wave window. Before I transmitted the call, I checked the OAT. It
was -22F - pretty much the limit for gellcoat.

The wings were condensing frost right out of the supersaturated, supercooled
air. The canopy was 50% frosted over. (Yes, there really is such a thing
as clear air icing.) I asked the student to check spoilers and it took three
huge efforts to get them unlocked from the ice. I thought about landing a
spoilerless G103 on a snow covered runway with water hazards and decided
this wasn't the day so I didn't make the radio call. We didn't get rid of
the ice until below 9,000.

Ah well, the sun is shining and tomorrow should be warmer yet.

Bill Daniels

Peter Seddon wrote:



You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
so bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
two seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My
caravan had a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we
only flew for three. When I look at my log book for the past four years
the number of flights have decereased each year and I have my own
aircraft. Our club is restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't
fly with a 1000ft ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen
snow for a great number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the
52 flying weekends last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to
familly committments and about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the
reason gliding is declining for new members, people loose interest through
lack of flying weather. The UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet
winters, days like last Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very
few and far between.

Peter.

Yes, but the point is that support for gliding is getting _worse_. The
weather isn't, in fact (and I speak from about 40 years experience in the
game), if anything it's getting better (remember global warming).

And although I take your point about this year, 2003 was one of the good
ones. (Certainly I managed 80 hours flying at a weekends only from North
Yorkshire, despite 6 weeks lost to health problems).

Clip
Where I live I havn't seen
snow for a great number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of
the
52 flying weekends last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to
familly committments and about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the
reason gliding is declining for new members, people loose interest
through
lack of flying weather. The UK has had three wery wet summers and mild
wet
winters, days like last Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very
few and far between.

Peter.

Yes, but the point is that support for gliding is getting _worse_. The
weather isn't, in fact (and I speak from about 40 years experience in the
game), if anything it's getting better (remember global warming).

And although I take your point about this year, 2003 was one of the good
ones. (Certainly I managed 80 hours flying at a weekends only from North
Yorkshire, despite 6 weeks lost to health problems).





Not on the west coast it wasn't, although other thing conspired to keep our
club out of the air.

Peter

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:18:36 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:


I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

It's not about putting a ball into a basket or hitting it with a piece
of wood.
It's about the girls watching you do that.

How many girls watched your low saves and wanted your phone number
after you had managed to get home?






Bye
Andreas