Cozy, Long ezy, and diesel engine.

"LCT Paintball" wrote
Please excuse my ignorance, but I've been reading a lot of hoopla over 2
stroke diesel aircraft engines. Has anybody tried one of these in a Cozy
or
Long Ezy?

I am no expert, but I'll give it a shot.

Problem number one, they are all in test phase, or prototype, and not
available, AFAIK.

It sounds to me like that may make for a very fuel efficient
aircraft with good performance. Any reason why it can't be done?

Nope, and when they are out there at reasonable costs, lots of people will
be wanting to get ahold of them. Problem now is, they have been going to be
available to the public in the next six months, for the last five years.
Get my drift?

Some people are home-brewing 4 stroke diesels, from cars, and had pretty
good luck. I recall one being in a pusher.

If the aircraft is home built, could it burn standard diesel even though
it
hasn't been approved by the FAA?

For experimental, you could burn peanut oil, as far as the FAA cares.

Is there a good reason not to use standard
diesel other than fuel congealing at cold temperatures?

Sounds like a damn good reason to me! :-)

One of the big reasons that people want diesels, is that they could burn the
jet fuel that is at all major airports, and lots of minor ones. g
--
Jim in NC

"
It sounds to me like that may make for a very fuel efficient
aircraft with good performance. Any reason why it can't be done?

Nope, and when they are out there at reasonable costs, lots of people will
be wanting to get ahold of them. Problem now is, they have been going to
be
available to the public in the next six months, for the last five years.
Get my drift?

You're saying that they just aren't available, not that they wouldn't be
efficient when they're available, right?


Some people are home-brewing 4 stroke diesels, from cars, and had pretty
good luck. I recall one being in a pusher.

I thought those had some weight issues.

Sounds like a damn good reason to me! :-)

True, but that issue can be fixed.



One of the big reasons that people want diesels, is that they could burn
the
jet fuel that is at all major airports, and lots of minor ones. g

Yea, but standard diesel is much cheaper.

"LCT Paintball" wrote in message
news:9bHQd.3342$zH6.1064@attbi_s53...
"
It sounds to me like that may make for a very fuel efficient
aircraft with good performance. Any reason why it can't be done?

Nope, and when they are out there at reasonable costs, lots of people
will
be wanting to get ahold of them. Problem now is, they have been going
to
be
available to the public in the next six months, for the last five years.
Get my drift?

You're saying that they just aren't available, not that they wouldn't be
efficient when they're available, right?

Right


Some people are home-brewing 4 stroke diesels, from cars, and had pretty
good luck. I recall one being in a pusher.

I thought those had some weight issues.

Some have done a pretty good job of keepng the weight down, and it really
matters what you start from.

Sounds like a damn good reason to me! :-)

True, but that issue can be fixed.

That comment was about fuel jelling. What are your fixes? Will it end up
making the cost higher? What happens when you go to other airports that
don't have auto diesel fuel?


One of the big reasons that people want diesels, is that they could burn
the
jet fuel that is at all major airports, and lots of minor ones. g

Yea, but standard diesel is much cheaper.
--
Jim in NC

True, but that issue can be fixed.

That comment was about fuel jelling. What are your fixes? Will it end up
making the cost higher? What happens when you go to other airports that
don't have auto diesel fuel?


The first fix would be to pump extra fuel through the system so that it can
be warmed by the engine, then returned to the tank. Perhaps you could even
run it through the oil cooler before sending it to the engine. There are
also additives that are routinely used to keep the fuel from jelling.

My understanding is that these engines are actually multifueled. You could
run them from diesel fuel, Jet-a, or any combination of the 2.

If I understand the issues correctly, the turbo charged diesel engines
retain most of their power even at high altitudes (around 25K). And, they
give about 30% improvement in fuel efficiency over av gas.

Please understand you're speaking to a complete novice here. I was hoping to
glean knowledge from you guys.

"LCT Paintball" wrote in message
news:F7QQd.5629$4D6.3605@attbi_s51...
True, but that issue can be fixed.

That comment was about fuel jelling. What are your fixes? Will it end
up
making the cost higher? What happens when you go to other airports that
don't have auto diesel fuel?


The first fix would be to pump extra fuel through the system so that it
can
be warmed by the engine, then returned to the tank. Perhaps you could even
run it through the oil cooler before sending it to the engine. There are
also additives that are routinely used to keep the fuel from jelling.

The additives will be the best bet, but expensive, when you add that to the
price for fuel. Truckers use it, but they are only dealing with negative in
the teens, not 20 to 30 below, with a huge moving air factor, around the
fuel. All that fuel, basicly in direct contact with the air, with Al's
great thermal conductivity. You would need to insulate the tank. Not easy,
and more weight. Now add in whatever fuel heat exchangers, lines, and
pumps, and more weight, and also, complexity. (read ways to bring you down
before you wanted to) I didn't do any calcs, but you would need to capture
almost all of the engine's waste heat to do this without additives.

I realize that you would not be in that kind of temperatures all of the
time, but all you need is one time where things were colder than you
thought, and......

Many around here will talk about the hassles of using your own auto fuel,
and what happens when you travel away from home. That is what the airplane
you are describing will be good at; great economy, and legs.

Shoot, one nutcase that hangs out around here even made his own fuel truck
to feed his habit. g

The old saying about asking how much fuel that yacht burns? If you have to
ask how much fuel it burns, you can't afford the boat.

Same thing here. Jet fuel is not that bad, it will give you great economy,
and it is available, and won't end up killing you. Just my humble opinions.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"LCT Paintball" wrote in message
news:F7QQd.5629$4D6.3605@attbi_s51...
True, but that issue can be fixed.

That comment was about fuel jelling. What are your fixes? Will it
end
up
making the cost higher? What happens when you go to other airports
that
don't have auto diesel fuel?


The first fix would be to pump extra fuel through the system so that it
can
be warmed by the engine, then returned to the tank. Perhaps you could
even
run it through the oil cooler before sending it to the engine. There are
also additives that are routinely used to keep the fuel from jelling.

The additives will be the best bet, but expensive, when you add that to
the
price for fuel. Truckers use it, but they are only dealing with negative
in
the teens, not 20 to 30 below, with a huge moving air factor, around the
fuel. All that fuel, basicly in direct contact with the air, with Al's
great thermal conductivity. You would need to insulate the tank. Not
easy,
and more weight. Now add in whatever fuel heat exchangers, lines, and
pumps, and more weight, and also, complexity. (read ways to bring you down
before you wanted to) I didn't do any calcs, but you would need to
capture
almost all of the engine's waste heat to do this without additives.

I realize that you would not be in that kind of temperatures all of the
time, but all you need is one time where things were colder than you
thought, and......

Many around here will talk about the hassles of using your own auto fuel,
and what happens when you travel away from home. That is what the
airplane
you are describing will be good at; great economy, and legs.

Shoot, one nutcase that hangs out around here even made his own fuel truck
to feed his habit. g

The old saying about asking how much fuel that yacht burns? If you have
to
ask how much fuel it burns, you can't afford the boat.

Same thing here. Jet fuel is not that bad, it will give you great
economy,
and it is available, and won't end up killing you. Just my humble
opinions.
--
Jim in NC



You could use the fuel as an engine coolant in a liquid cooled diesel like
the Deltahawk.

With a wet wing, you'd get hot wing anti-ice capability and a skin radiator
in the bargain.

'Course, it wouldn't work if you ran out of fuel.....

Bill Daniels

In article , "Bill Daniels" wrote:



You could use the fuel as an engine coolant in a liquid cooled diesel like
the Deltahawk.

With a wet wing, you'd get hot wing anti-ice capability and a skin radiator
in the bargain.

1960's vintage Allis Chalmers crawlers using the diesel fuel as a cooling
medium and working medium for the torque converter. Worked well.
tom

"Bill Daniels" wrote

With a wet wing, you'd get hot wing anti-ice capability and a skin
radiator
in the bargain.

'Course, it wouldn't work if you ran out of fuel.....

Bill Daniels

Couple years back, someone did a pretty good set of calculations on that.
If you captured 100% of the engine waste heat, It wouldn't be even close
enough to de-ice a wing.

Turbines do it, cause they burn tons of fuel. IC engines don't come close.
--
Jim in NC

fuel. All that fuel, basicly in direct contact with the air, with Al's
great thermal conductivity. You would need to insulate the tank. Not
easy,
and more weight. Now add in whatever fuel heat exchangers, lines, and

Cozies and Long ez's aren't aluminum. I haven't studied what the wings look
like on the inside, but don't they already have foam in them? Do you still
think they would loose too much heat?


pumps, and more weight, and also, complexity. (read ways to bring you down
before you wanted to)

The fuel pumps are already there, and so are the fuel lines. The only thing
you would be adding is a device to transfer the heat from the engine oil, or
radiator to the fuel. I would think (read I'm not smart enough to do the
calculations) that the improved airodynamics of not having to have a
radiator in the wind would offset the extra weight of the heat exchanger.


Many around here will talk about the hassles of using your own auto fuel,
and what happens when you travel away from home. That is what the
airplane
you are describing will be good at; great economy, and legs.

My understanding is that they run equally well off Jet-a. If there's not any
diesel around, just filler up with Jet-a.


The old saying about asking how much fuel that yacht burns? If you have
to
ask how much fuel it burns, you can't afford the boat.

That is a good statement for me. Money is always an issue. I have been known
to spend $1,000 so I can save $100.



Same thing here. Jet fuel is not that bad, it will give you great
economy,
and it is available, and won't end up killing you. Just my humble
opinions.
--

I like that not killing me part. It's a rule that I try to live by.
I also like opinions. They make me think.....

"LCT Paintball" wrote

Cozies and Long ez's aren't aluminum. I haven't studied what the wings
look
like on the inside, but don't they already have foam in them? Do you still
think they would loose too much heat?

Right, I forgot that this was all about a long. Less loss, but it still is
zipping through the air, to help. How much? I don't know.

The fuel pumps are already there, and so are the fuel lines. The only
thing
you would be adding is a device to transfer the heat from the engine oil,
or
radiator to the fuel. I would think (read I'm not smart enough to do the
calculations) that the improved airodynamics of not having to have a
radiator in the wind would offset the extra weight of the heat exchanger.

If it did hold the heat real well, you might overheat the fuel, and have no
way to cool the oil. Very bad.

If this is a new tec engine, there is already a real big unknown added to
your plane. The old experience around here says not to add too many new
things to the mix, all at once. It adds to the chance of something going
wrong. It will go wrong, you just have to hope not too bad.

Nice thoughts, but I think it is valid to try to keep it simple.
--
Jim in NC