Parachutes again

this is EXACTLY the reason the FAA put required pack intervals on pilot
emergency parachutes....
if it were 'recommended" you pay 50 bucks every 120 days to repack your
parachute as opposed to being an FAA "requirement" (meaning you are in
violation of a regulation) would you?......and if you didn't do what was
"recommended" every 120 days..would you at 1 year? or two.....or??
You might......not everyone would....... now let's look at this also from
the parachute manufacturers point also..... would your widow call the local
TV ad for a lawyer in the event you didn't do what was "recommended"
it's not personal.....and it's not my regulation.but if we agree to the
rules to get a pilots certificate, with all the baggage that comes along
with it, we have in fact, said we understood and would comply with the
regulations.....some of which actually do make sense..
tim

Wings & Wheels
www.wingsandwheels.com

"Mark Zivley" wrote in message
. com...

Also, I was told by a few pilots that they are using parachutes as a
cushions in a glider.

While this is a quote that is occaisionally heard, it's not meant to be
taken literally. It usually means that although the chute is there to be
called upon in an emergency, the odds are that during the flight it will
only serve the purpose of being a cushion. It doesn't necessarily mean
that the chute is not being worn in the proper manner or that it is out of
re-pack.

Realize that in many gliders if you chose not to wear a parachute, you
would probably need to use some sort of a seat cushion in order to sit in
the glider comfortably. Which would you choose.... cushion, or a
parachute?

Tim Mara wrote:

this is EXACTLY the reason the FAA put required pack intervals on pilot
emergency parachutes....
if it were 'recommended" you pay 50 bucks every 120 days to repack your
parachute as opposed to being an FAA "requirement" (meaning you are in
violation of a regulation) would you?......and if you didn't do what was
"recommended" every 120 days..would you at 1 year? or two.....or??
You might......not everyone would....... now let's look at this also from
the parachute manufacturers point also..... would your widow call the local
TV ad for a lawyer in the event you didn't do what was "recommended"
it's not personal.....and it's not my regulation.but if we agree to the
rules to get a pilots certificate, with all the baggage that comes along
with it, we have in fact, said we understood and would comply with the
regulations.....some of which actually do make sense..
tim

I agree with your philosophy on regs Tim but in the case of the
parachute packing rules, I would be interested in seeing the statistical
backup for the rule.

Would once every 2 years be a problem? I'd guess a lot of riggers see
chutes whose last signature is more than 2 years ago. What percentage
of these are aired, refolded and encased again without any other defect
being found? In chutes less than 6 years from the factory, I'd say it
would be 100% If it isn't, the factory needs the FAA's inspectors, not
the parachute owner.

It's now well understood that many failures in aircraft equipment
actually originate from excessive checking and testing. I'd be
surprised to learn that parachute repacking was exempt from that
experience. What's the chance that a defect in a ten year old parachute
was caused by one of its 30 repacks rather than normal usage?

I know that regular drying is important but wouldn't it be simpler to
devise a moisture detection system with an indicator (colour change?) on
the outside rather than mandate the risks inherent in large numbers of
repacks?

All the data are available from the riggers.

I notice that Autoflug now offer a hermetically sealed emergency chute
with a repack interval of 5 years in use and a shelf life of 25 years.
It costs more but it saves what? ...$50 x 15. $750? Could other
manufacturers do the same? My suspicion is that they haven't taken the
market by storm because this is one reg that is so out of whack with
common experience that very few chute owners actually spend the $750.

A regulation so widely disregarded needs a repack...er...rethink.
GC

I don't have great experience with this, but I did make 3 military
jumps back when my young knees would take my then 151 pounds... I don't
want to think about that now, so don't ask... I recently got a 'chute
with a glider purchase. It hasn't been repacked in a couple of years.
It's less than 10 years old. Why, though, should I repack it 3 times in
a year? Will I use it in winter? Will it deteriorate more if it's not
repacked but left in it's container? I still favor the 180-day repack
if not just annually for these chutes that just get worn in the
cockpit. Yes, the age thing is proabbly a viable issue. But to me, it's
kind of like making all airline pilots retire at 60... probably a
waste, much of the time.

Just my nickel's worth...

Jack Womack

There is an initiative, reported at the SSA BoD meeting in ONT to
extend the repack cycle to 180 days. Whether or not the chute is safe
is not so much the point as the FAA and the FAR's. THEY make the rules
and if in the course of a check you are not in compliance, you pay the
penalty.

Chip F

Has anyone been ramp checked, been found with a chute that was say 120
to 240 days since last repack (not 5 years out of date...). If so, did
the FAA guy "write you up" and if so, what was the impact or penalty?

Now don't flame me thinking I'm planning on doing this, I take good care
of my rigs and I get them repacked at the start and at the midpoint of
the season, no point in wasting $50 for the winter... I'm just cuious
what the liability is if you got checked. There is not one of us out
flying gliders who would rationally decide on the 121st day that he or
she would be better off leaving their rig in the trailer.

Gary

chipsoars wrote:
There is an initiative, reported at the SSA BoD meeting in ONT to
extend the repack cycle to 180 days. Whether or not the chute is safe
is not so much the point as the FAA and the FAR's. THEY make the rules
and if in the course of a check you are not in compliance, you pay the
penalty.

Chip F

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:27:56 GMT, Gary Emerson
wrote:

Has anyone been ramp checked, been found with a chute that was say 120
to 240 days since last repack (not 5 years out of date...). If so, did
the FAA guy "write you up" and if so, what was the impact or penalty?

Now don't flame me thinking I'm planning on doing this, I take good care
of my rigs and I get them repacked at the start and at the midpoint of
the season, no point in wasting $50 for the winter... I'm just cuious
what the liability is if you got checked. There is not one of us out
flying gliders who would rationally decide on the 121st day that he or
she would be better off leaving their rig in the trailer.

Gary

chipsoars wrote:
There is an initiative, reported at the SSA BoD meeting in ONT to
extend the repack cycle to 180 days. Whether or not the chute is safe
is not so much the point as the FAA and the FAR's. THEY make the rules
and if in the course of a check you are not in compliance, you pay the
penalty.

Chip F

I have personal knowledge of a $1000 fine and a certificate action
against a pilot who flew with an out of date parachute. I also have
personal knowledge of a parachute opening just fine after not being
packed for 16 years. I was under it. Safe and legal are two
different things. I advocate both.

Bill Zaleski
FAA Master Rigger

Yes Bill, I agree. I jumped just 2 years ago a main canopy which was
seating in the deployment bag for 4 years. I new I packed it, remove
the risers from the harness/container and had it in my packing room.
Then one day in the evening I was to lazy to pack my main so I grabbed
that old Raven II I packed over 4 years ago. No problem. It opened just
fine. But in the case of skydiving we all have a second parachute on
our backs. We are not questioning if the equipment will work or not.
The point here is that the regulations and the manufacturers
recommending repack and inspections every 120 days. And for other
people...it is not 4 months, it is 120 days. Now, whether the parachute
is good after 120 days or 180 days it doesn't matter. Unless the FAA,
all of the manufacturers and PIA will change the repack cycle to 180 or
360 days, or whatever the interval might be, right now it is 120 days.
And if the manufacturer is putting on their equipment a life span, well
that is it. End of story.
Now, I have seen in Oakland, CA pilot going to fly acro in his Super
Decathlon ramp checked. His parachute was out of date and the FAA
suspended his license for 60 days. I don't remember if there were any
monetary penalty as well or just the suspension. Similar situation I
witnessed at the non existing anymore glider port in Fremont, CA. But
the violator was an instructor so the penalty was much more severe.
Besides having his license suspended his instructional privilege was in
jeopardy. Since this was in like 1986 I don't remember the particulars,
maybe that person is posting to this group and could give us some
better explanation.
And now, like a rigger to rigger...would you pack for someone a 39
years old canopy? or 27 years old canopy? I would not. We riggers,
are not just a bunch of stuck-ups, we are just like the A&P's and the
AI's with the main difference that instead using aluminum, wood or
composite we are using fabric, webbing and line. The data shows that
the fabric is degrading while packed in the container at the rate of
about 3% a year. So, 3% x 20 years = 60% loss in strength. You now as
well as I do that you can grab the F-111 fabric, which most of the
emergency canopies are made out of, and you can pull as hard as you can
and it is O'K but move your grip a foot in any direction and you will
tore the fabric with a minimal force. Performance Designs asks that
after 40 repack cycles the canopy being returned to the factory for
evaluation. Why? Because it degrades!!! And the same is true for every
single canopy especially those older then 20 years.
So guys and gals.. you can argue as much as you want but the regs and
the industry would have to change dramatically. In the mean time it is
120 days or fly without a parachute.

I was talking to the Strong Rep at the convention and his thought on
repacking was once a year would be fine-no problem at all.


"Jack" wrote in message
ups.com...
I don't have great experience with this, but I did make 3 military
jumps back when my young knees would take my then 151 pounds... I don't
want to think about that now, so don't ask... I recently got a 'chute
with a glider purchase. It hasn't been repacked in a couple of years.
It's less than 10 years old. Why, though, should I repack it 3 times in
a year? Will I use it in winter? Will it deteriorate more if it's not
repacked but left in it's container? I still favor the 180-day repack
if not just annually for these chutes that just get worn in the
cockpit. Yes, the age thing is proabbly a viable issue. But to me, it's
kind of like making all airline pilots retire at 60... probably a
waste, much of the time.

Just my nickel's worth...

Jack Womack

I was talking to the Strong Rep at the convention and his thought on
repacking was once a year would be fine-no problem at all.

Yes!!! I'm not the only freefall junkie with this opinion!

-eltuno/2NO

The funny thing is that when the chute passes it's 120 day repack
limit you can also just leave it in the trailer when you go flying if
you don't want to violate FAA regs......Sort of like requiring a $50
inspection every four months for motorcycle helmets, if you wear one,
but leaving the wearing of them up to the individual rider.

Does anyone out there know what the Canadian regulations are when it
comes to pilot emergency parachute repack schedules? I've looked
through the CARS until they started making me physically nauseous and
the only reference I could find seemed to be exclusively about
skydiving and said that the main and reserve chutes had to be repacked
by a rigger within 120 days of the parachute decsent. As far as I can
tell, there isn't any required repack interval for pilot emergency
chutes here.

That said, I myself would go by the 120 day repack cycle.