Pilots Group Grades U.S. Aviation Security an 'F'

Jose wrote:
The single thing that would make the biggest difference in
security is to allow profiling. Until we look for the terrorists
themselves .. we're just ****ing in the wind.

Yes, and not just terrorists. We should profile for other criminals
too, such as drug lords, child molesters, embezzlers, welfare cheats,
deadbeat dads, jaywalkers, athiests, and other evil people. Once this
is in place, we can enjoy the free society our forefathers died for.


So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of
killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire of
killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have embezzlers,
welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a
substantive distinction.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a substantive distinction.

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire of killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have embezzlers, welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a substantive distinction.

(oops - pressed the wrong button.)

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so. I have personally been on the wrong end of a
machine gun for insisting (politely) that my film be hand inspected at
LGA rather than run through the X-ray machine. The screener insisted
that there were "secret laws" that applied, something that was only
straightend out (in my favor) when I called the FAA out on them. The
same thing happened to me in DC when I dashed into an alcove (a
legitimate entrance to a museum) in a rainstorm; I didn't want to enter
the museum, but didn't want my film X-rayed. Ten security guards
escorted me back into the rainstorm. (I swear the entire contingent was
called out).

Does "carnivore" ring a bell, or has everyone forgotten the gross
intrusion of privacy =that= entailed? The profile of the Columbine
killers is the same as a good portion of our youth, most of whom are
perfectly good citizens with odd (or not even that odd) tastes.
Profiling effectively criminalizes harmless but unusual behavior, and
this is bad for society in a way that will not be apparant for twenty
years, and cannot be undone.

The presumption of innocence upon which this country is based becomes
nothing more than doubletalk if we need to prove our innocence before
being presumed so.

We are doing =far= more damage to ourselves than the terrorists ever did.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
So on one hand we have organized gangs with a demonstrated ability of
killing thousands of civilians at a time and a strongly stated desire
of killing hundreds of thousands and on the other hand we have
embezzlers, welfare cheats, etc.

If you look really hard Jose, you may be able to dimly make out a
substantive distinction.


(oops - pressed the wrong button.)

Yes, =I= can make that distinction. However I do not trust our
government to do so. I have personally been on the wrong end of a
machine gun for insisting (politely) that my film be hand inspected at
LGA rather than run through the X-ray machine.

I'm impressed. I go through LGA, DCA, IAD and other airports several
times a month; have not seen TSA pulling pulling machine guns at all,
much less during polite discussion.

We are doing =far= more damage to ourselves than the terrorists ever did.

Well, the terrorists have killed several thousand of us and want to kill
as many as they can get to. Unless TSA has been mass murdering
travelers with their metal detector wands I presume you are referring to
damage to your ego.

It *is* quite necessary to make sure that law enforcement is held
accountable for any unreasonable treatment whether it is force during
arrest or searching someone they should not. Having said that, the
current mindlessly PC driven policies prevent focusing on more likely
killers is going to get people killed.

I'm impressed. I go through LGA, DCA, IAD and other airports several times a month; have not seen TSA pulling pulling machine guns at all, much less during polite discussion.

It's changed some. This was during the early days.

Unless TSA has been mass murdering travelers with their metal detector wands I presume you are referring to damage to your ego.

No. My ego is unimportant. I am referring to the damage to the freedom
of Americans to just be a little odd if they feel like it. The freedom
to fly small airplanes near the Capitol or the Space Shuttle. The
freedom to eat like a civilized person aboard an airliner. The freedom
to buy an airplane ticket with cash. The freedom to read without being
scrutinzed by law enforcement. The freedom to do a hundred little
things, neither of which matter much, but in aggregate add up.

I'm also talking about the resources spent on "protecting" stuff that
either doesn't need protecting, cannot (in principle) be protected
anyway, or is being protected from the wrong thing. I'm talking about
the way of =thinking= that has changed in this country, where people are
looked upon with suspicion if they are not Good Christians or Good Jews.

I'm talking about the mindset of fear that has half the country eager to
surrender even more freedoms for the illusion that "Good Government" is
going to make all these problems "go away", as long as we give up our
own ability to defend ourselves and just trust in law enforcement (front
page news yesterday in the NY Times - police detectives murder for the Mob)

I'm talking about the people who will one day be shot down for violating
one of those stupid pop-up TFRs meant to protect the egos of the high
officials and of Disney World.

Terrorists can destroy our economy (and kill many people as collateral
damage) just by running naked through the airport security area
backwards. If we profile young Arab males, the next attack will be from
an older German female. The next weapon will be casually dropped into
an American granma's bag, and retrieved later (or left to be discovered
by the TSA). There are =so= many ways around profiling, and if you
think Osama hasn't thought of this, you underestimate him and his ilk.

All he has to do is destroy the heart - the foundation - of this
country, and he has won. Profiling =is= the evil against which we stand.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

Terrorists can destroy our economy (and kill many people as collateral
damage) just by running naked through the airport security area
backwards.

Interesting technique. Perhaps TSA should keep a supply of hospital
gowns to cover naked terrorists rampaging about the airport.

If we profile young Arab males, the next attack will be from
an older German female.

This assumes equal willingness of young Arab males and older German
females to be mass murderers.

There are =so= many ways around profiling, and if you
think Osama hasn't thought of this, you underestimate him and his ilk.

I don't want to be an apologist for TSA or any other government agency
but how do you explain the fact that despite numerous attempts the
terrorists have been unable to kill anyone else in this country since 9/11?

Either Osama and Al Queda don't deserve their Allah like reputation or
TSA & the rest of DHS have been effective.

Our economy is doing extremely well; the envy of Europe in fact and we
survived more draconian restrictions and minor personal inconveniences
during WWII.

We are winning and will prevail despite whiners and Chicken Littles.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:24:52 GMT, Doug Carter wrote:

I don't want to be an apologist for TSA or any other government agency
but how do you explain the fact that despite numerous attempts the
terrorists have been unable to kill anyone else in this country since 9/11?

and the many years before 9/11 without attacks was only luck?
saying that due to TSA there has been no further attack is a bad argument.

#m
--
http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg

Martin Hotze wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:24:52 GMT, Doug Carter wrote:


I don't want to be an apologist for TSA or any other government agency
but how do you explain the fact that despite numerous attempts the
terrorists have been unable to kill anyone else in this country since 9/11?


and the many years before 9/11 without attacks was only luck?
saying that due to TSA there has been no further attack is a bad argument.


OK, presuming that TSA is ineffective then apparently OBL and Al Queda
have been, for the most part, neutered by their devastating losses in
the Mideast.

Or... perhaps they think an attack every ten years or so will accomplish
something other than getting the remaining dregs of their organization
killed or arrested.

Seems like a good "get out the vote" program would go a lot further
towards making them an effective political force; but then serial
killers generally kill for pleasure, not political gain.

Perhaps TSA should keep a supply of hospital gowns to cover naked terrorists rampaging about the airport.

Interesting solution, but the problem isn't that they'd be naked. The
problem is that they'd've entered the sterile area, albeit unarmed
(which was the point of being naked). We'd still close down the airport
and re-screen everyone. Do this once a day at a different airport, at a
time which fits a pattern that is revealed later and then changed.

This assumes equal willingness of young Arab males and older German females to be mass murderers.

Perhaps. But don't underestimate the ability of ideas to cross
boundaries. There is nothing particularly Arab about this whole thing -
there are plenty of other groups (including Good Christians) which do
horrible things to each other in the name of some deity or another.
There are Americans on trial right now for participating in terrorist
activities related to 9-11, and there are plenty of people who "fit the
profile" who have =nothing= to do with 9-11 or terrorism. Fueling
hatred by profiling is an act of destruction in itself, and costs lives.

how do you explain the fact that despite numerous attempts the terrorists have been unable to kill anyone else in this country since 9/11?

Ever since 9-11 I have been eating yoghurt and fruit for breakfast, and
I believe that this has kept the terrorists at bay. Not one attack has
succeeded since I have been doing this.

Seriously, the Osama attacks are carefully planned over the course of
many many years - they are not impulse actions. We may have made it
more difficult to accomplish a certain kind of action, but we've also
made it more difficult to thwart it should it occur. I'm not sure this
is progress, and I think the costs to our freedoms outweigh the dubious
benefits provided by "security".

It is the nature of an open society that it is vulnerable. It ceases to
be an open society long before it ceases to be vulnerable. Profiling is
just one way this happens.

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

This assumes equal willingness of young Arab males and older German
females to be mass murderers.


Perhaps. But don't underestimate the ability of ideas to cross
boundaries. There is nothing particularly Arab about this whole thing -

Islam is not restricted to Arabic countries but then Islam is not the
problem. Specific Arabic terrorist groups that use Islam as a blind are
the problem.

Ever since 9-11 I have been eating yoghurt and fruit for breakfast, and
I believe that this has kept the terrorists at bay.

This is a good thing, especially since you are much more likely to die
of a heart attack than a terrorist attack in this country.

We may have made it
more difficult to accomplish a certain kind of action, but we've also
made it more difficult to thwart it should it occur.

Sorry, not following this argument...

It is the nature of an open society that it is vulnerable. It ceases to
be an open society long before it ceases to be vulnerable. Profiling is
just one way this happens.

I don't, for the most part disagree, but, consider this: Would you
suggest that after two white males rob a bank that we should be looking
for "two humans?" The reaction to so called "profiling" is, for the
most part, an emotional derivative of the civil rights movement in this
country rather than a fundamental issue.