All Engines-out Landing Due to Fuel Exhaustion - Air Transat, 24 August2001

"Roman Svihorik" wrote in message
...
Yes, Dave, I saw it on the National Geographic channel a year or so ago.
Personally, I felt impressed - I just could not believe such a plane can
land without engines and total structural damages and passenger toll...
Roman

Just about ANY airplane can be landed safely without
engines, as long as the elevation and glide ratio allow
a long enough glide to reach (and maneuver to) a runway.

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.

"No Spam"
sednews
"Roman Svihorik" wrote in message
...
Yes, Dave, I saw it on the National Geographic channel a year or so
ago. Personally, I felt impressed - I just could not believe such a
plane can land without engines and total structural damages and
passenger toll... Roman

Just about ANY airplane can be landed safely without
engines, as long as the elevation and glide ratio allow
a long enough glide to reach (and maneuver to) a runway.

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.

Not including the Osprey, of course, where one of the possibilities put
forward in how to deal with an engine failure was to point a gun at the
pilot's head that would go off in such an eventuality so he wouldn't have
to worry about it.

Bertie




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No Spam wrote:
"Roman Svihorik" wrote in message
...
Yes, Dave, I saw it on the National Geographic channel a year or so
ago.
Personally, I felt impressed - I just could not believe such a
plane can
land without engines and total structural damages and passenger
toll...
Roman

Just about ANY airplane can be landed safely without
engines, as long as the elevation and glide ratio allow
a long enough glide to reach (and maneuver to) a runway.

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.

As attested to by the 'gimli glider'. Hope 'gimli' is correct, it has
been awhile.

Harry K

"harry k" wrote in message
ups.com...

No Spam wrote:
"Roman Svihorik" wrote in message
...
Yes, Dave, I saw it on the National Geographic channel a year or so
ago.
Personally, I felt impressed - I just could not believe such a
plane can
land without engines and total structural damages and passenger
toll...
Roman

Just about ANY airplane can be landed safely without
engines, as long as the elevation and glide ratio allow
a long enough glide to reach (and maneuver to) a runway.

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.

As attested to by the 'gimli glider'. Hope 'gimli' is correct, it has
been awhile.

Harry K

Rumor has it U 2's have glided "Several Hundred Miles" & made successful
dead stick landings.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type
Posting From ADA

"Ralph Nesbitt" wrote...
Rumor has it U 2's have glided "Several Hundred Miles" & made
successful dead stick landings.

So have space shuttles (except for one), but then that's a little d'ferent.

"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli Glider"
episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel starvation, the
pilot clearly states that their training did *not* account for the
possibility. Understandably so- MTBF on those engines is in the 100s of
thousands of hours and airline procedures make fuel exhaustion unimaginable.
And unsinkable ships can't hit icebergs either.

I'm beginning to wonder a little about Air Transat. I just read about one of
their A310 rudders snapping off. The plane landed back in Varadero ok. So it
seems their pilots are trained OK but perhaps their maintenance & ops
departments need some work.

-cwk.

"Colin W Kingsbury"
thlink.net:


"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli
Glider" episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel
starvation, the pilot clearly states that their training did *not*
account for the possibility.

Well I had done deadstick landings in the sim looong before that happened.
And that wasn't the first deadstick jet either.



Bertie

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"Bertie the Bunyip" XZXZ@XZXZ.,XZXZX wrote in message
00.144...
"Colin W Kingsbury"
thlink.net:


"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli
Glider" episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel
starvation, the pilot clearly states that their training did *not*
account for the possibility.

Well I had done deadstick landings in the sim looong before that happened.
And that wasn't the first deadstick jet either.



Bertie

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I think all the commercial passenger jets have a better glide angle than the
normal glide slope of landing. DC-10 lost all engines off Florida a few
years ago, and landed safely. Mechanic had left the o-rings off the oil
plugs for all the engines.

Calif Bill wrote:

I think all the commercial passenger jets have a better glide
angle than the normal glide slope of landing.

The normal glide slope for an ILS landing is around 2.5 to 3.0 degrees.
A 747 is supposed to have an optimum glide slope of about 3 degrees,
(19:1) making it at the top end of the ILS glide slope. That is the
optimum, but it will likely be steeper in practice. As an example, the
actual glide slope of the Gimli Glider was about 5 degrees. (11:1)

DC-10 lost all engines off Florida a few years ago, and landed
safely. Mechanic had left the o-rings off the oil plugs for
all the engines.

It was an Eastern Airlines L-1011, and it landed with one engine
operating. (It had been shut down earlier as a precaution, but
restarted.) The o-rings were left off the engine's chip detectors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1984/AAR8404.htm

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:23:11 GMT, James Robinson
wrote:

It was an Eastern Airlines L-1011, and it landed with one engine
operating. (It had been shut down earlier as a precaution, but
restarted.) The o-rings were left off the engine's chip detectors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1984/AAR8404.htm

That isn't how my uncle, who was an Eastern Airlines check pilot
described it to me. He could have been mistaken of course, or I could
be remembering what he told me incorrectly.

He told me that the mechanics and the parts people had developed a
kind of non standard in-house procedure when it came to changing the
oil. Normally when the oil was changed in the engines, the procedure
required that the plug and O-ring be replaced, and this is what the
mechanics did routinely. But the parts counter guy was being helpful
and had gotten into the habit of pre-installing the O-rings for the
mechanics so that they did not have to bother.

On the day of the incident, or the day before, the aircraft was
serviced and the oil changed in all three engines. Per the routine,
the plugs were replaced. But this time when the mechanic walked to
the parts counter, there were no plugs ready for pickup. So the parts
guy had to walk back and get the plugs for the mechanic out of a bin.
This broke the routine and he forgot to get the O-rings as well. The
mechanic, used to them already being on, forgot to check for their
presence or ask for them. He had not had to ask for them for a long
time.

So the plugs went in without the O-rings installed.

The way the flight was described to me by my uncle, the airplane
climbed out routinely and at the altitude described in the above url,
one of the engines showed low oil pressure. So they shut it down and
I think they continued on as the destination was almost equally close
as Miami. A few seconds later however a second engine showed low oil
pressure and they shut that one down too and immediately turned back
towards Miami.

Feeling that whatever had happened to the first two engines could
affect the third one, they shut the last one down as a precaution and
glided towards the airport. Their intent was to save it for use when
they arrived at Miami.

As they approached Miami, they successfully restarted the engine that
had been running last and landed under power. Some of the passengers
immediately boarded another airplane to continue their flight, others
were more skittish and did not.

That's how it was described to me. My uncle's name was John Warner,
no longer with us now. He also told me the DC-3 hanging in the
Smithsonian Air and Space Museum was very familiar to him, he'd flown
it thousands of hours.

Corky Scott