Cessna Over DC -- NASA Form?

In article ,
"Gary Drescher" wrote:

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
If there are no consequences for busting the ADIZ, you might as well not
have the ADIZ.

Nevertheless, under current law and policy, there can be no enforcement
consequences if the ASRS immunity conditions are met (inadvertent,
non-criminal violation; no accident; ASRS report filed within ten days; and
no prior finding of FAR violation within five years).


I'm just saying that there need to be consequences, not that those
consequences have to come from the FAA. Of course, if I did something
like that and had these moron reporters stalking me, plastering my name
everywhere, and talking about a Cessna 150 like it was a 757, I don't
think I could find a rock big enough to hide under. Maybe that is
punishment enough.

My biggest issue is the deflection that takes place after these
incidents, or even aircraft accidents in general. The reason people
violate the ADIZ and prohibited areas, and bust airspace, and run out of
fuel, is due to poor planning and/or judgment on the part of the pilots,
not because the ADIZ exists, the airspace exists, or darn it, those
engines require fuel in order to keep running.



JKG

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
I'm just saying that there need to be consequences, not that those
consequences have to come from the FAA.

It's not clear where else they could come from, though (except in terms of
embarrassment, as you mention). Accidentally busting an ADIZ is not a crime,
as far as I'm aware; the FBI has already announced that there are no
criminal charges to be pressed.

The reason people
violate the ADIZ and prohibited areas, and bust airspace, and run out of
fuel, is due to poor planning and/or judgment on the part of the pilots,

The reports so far suggest that the pilot did plan to avoid the ADIZ, so his
planning was not necessarily inadequate. Looks like he just got lost. What
was probably lacking was his navigational skill, though even that isn't
certain--being highly skilled makes elementary errors unlikely, but not
impossible.

--Gary

In article ,
It's not clear where else they could come from, though (except in terms of
embarrassment, as you mention). Accidentally busting an ADIZ is not a crime,
as far as I'm aware; the FBI has already announced that there are no
criminal charges to be pressed.

Seems like a homeland security event to me. I fail to believe that
there can't be exceptions to the NASA ASRS procedures in extreme cases,
and I'd say busing the ADIZ and prohibited airspace is extreme.



The reports so far suggest that the pilot did plan to avoid the ADIZ, so his
planning was not necessarily inadequate. Looks like he just got lost. What
was probably lacking was his navigational skill, though even that isn't
certain--being highly skilled makes elementary errors unlikely, but not
impossible.


I haven't seen or heard anything that suggests that the flight planning
was adequate, but even if it was, the execution was not adequate. I
would say that it's quite certain that the pilot's navigational skills
were not adequate, otherwise he wouldn't have busted airspace as badly
as he did--remember, he didn't just clip the ADIZ and retreat, he was
apparently pretty deep into the ADIZ and the prohibited area.

It seems like the entire event could have been avoided had he been
talking to someone. Apparently, the radio wasn't working. In my
opinion, taking an airplane with an inoperative radio into or around the
DC area is lunacy.



JKG

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
I fail to believe that there can't be exceptions to the NASA ASRS
procedures in extreme cases,
and I'd say busing the ADIZ and prohibited airspace is extreme.

The immunity promise is spelled out in the NASA link I posted earlier. It
has no exception for busting ADIZs. "Extreme" cases are criminal cases
rather than merely civil cases (in civil cases, the FAA can just impose
fines and administrative penalties, such as license suspensions). The ASRS
immunity indeed does not apply to criminal violations. But the FBI has
already said that there is no crime to prosecute. So that leaves the FAA,
which is bound by the ASRS immunity promise (if the spelled-out conditions
apply).

Look, it's not that I'm underestimating what the government could do in the
name of homeland security these days. I don't deny that they could
contravene due process (and other Constitutional guarantees) to disappear
you, or torture you, or send you to Saudi Arabia to be tortured, if they
deemed it important enough. What I doubt is that they would blatantly and
publicly contravene due process (by failing to honor a binding promise of
immunity, which is a staple of our legal system) just to impose a piddling
penalty like suspending a pilot's license.

Apparently, the radio wasn't working. In my
opinion, taking an airplane with an inoperative radio into or around the
DC area is lunacy.

Has it been established that the radio failed *before* entering the area?

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:
"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...

Apparently, the radio wasn't working. In my
opinion, taking an airplane with an inoperative radio into or
around the
DC area is lunacy.

Has it been established that the radio failed *before* entering the
area?


According to one of the intercept pilots, the Cessna pilot began
talking to them on 121.5 after the intercept. Sounds to me like the
radio was working fine.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)