Has your kit company gone bankrupt?

an argument for picking it up yourself, true....

Yes thats what I did. I phoned them ahead and asked if they have the
pieces ready and then went there and picked it up and paid them on the
spot. Actually they still did not have 100% everything but it all
trickled in within a few months. I did hear of some other scarry
stories - like where a retract gear was paid for in advance and did not
get delivered for five years. Fortunately the builder still did not get
to that stage anyway.

A simple plans built airplane can be built in 2000 hours,assuming you
work halfway efficiently. The problem is many builders have no skills
and also no great amount of time to devote to the project because they
are working a lot of hours. (You'd think they would be therefore
affluent enough to buy an airplane....)

The sad part is kits wind up taking these people almost as much time
as a scratchbuilt airplane would.

The bottom line is you need to become a skilled aircraft mechanic to
build an airplane...is it a skill set you value enough to learn at this
price? (Don't mistake "skilled" for "licensed". They have absolutely
no relation whatsoever to each other.)

Experimental Amateur Built has, to an extent, become a simple and
baldfaced dodge around type certification. When 90% of builders are
building a few types of 49% done kits on a cookie cutter basis, it's
time to re-evaluate "the system". Experimental should be for
experimenters: people like Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.

...Experimental should be for experimenters...

Thats somewhat of a misnomer. We often use the term "homebuilt" or
"amateur built" for an aircraft that is essentially cheaper for the
performance and not necessarily building it as an experiment or
pioneering in the field. I built a homebuilt in order to have an IFR
aircraft that cruises about 200mph and seats 4 (and incidentally uses
about 5gal/hr at 120knots) for a fraction of the price of a certified.
Yes. I had fun... but now I enjoy more flying it rather than
"experimenting" with it.

The biggest advantage of plans built is cost. Although too much
"experimenting" even with a plans built can erase that advantage.
The biggest disadvantage is time and the chance that the original
builder will abandon the project - about 90% of the time.

.....A simple plans built airplane can be built in 2000 hours....

Yeah ... too simple....
A comparative plans built aircraft would take me twice as long as my
kit unit did. Most similar plans built units I have noted, took 10-15
years. There isn't a great chance I could finish one to enjoy flying
one at my age.
--------------------------------------------------------------
SQ2000 canard: http://www.abri.com/sq2000

wrote:

Experimental Amateur Built has, to an extent, become a simple and
baldfaced dodge around type certification. When 90% of builders are
building a few types of 49% done kits on a cookie cutter basis, it's
time to re-evaluate "the system". Experimental should be for
experimenters: people like Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.

I'm all for it if the price stays the same...

wrote:

Experimental Amateur Built has, to an extent, become a simple and
baldfaced dodge around type certification. When 90% of builders are
building a few types of 49% done kits on a cookie cutter basis, it's
time to re-evaluate "the system". Experimental should be for
experimenters: people like Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.

I can't comment on the quick-build kits, but Van's standard kits do
require you to learn how to build an airplane.

As for experimentals being only for experimenters, I guess that's one
opinion. According to the FAA document that you have to provide for
the cert., the builder is building the airplane as an educational
experience. If you get around to finishing said homebuilt, it's most
likely that you got an education. I don't think the FAA should limit
experimentals only to folks who are trying to do something that hasn't
been done before. Many of the folks that do go on to pioneer new
designs, first build someone elses "cookie cutter" homebuilt. Where
are these pioneers supposed to come from?

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

people like Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.


What is your beef? Sounds like you have an agenda or some type of beef
with people that build aircraft for "educational and recreational"
purposes. Experimental is not what the homebuilt aircraft is about
although that is certainly a part of it.

Jerry

wrote in message
oups.com...

Experimental should be for experimenters: people like
Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.


Jawohl, mien herr!

If Van Grunsven were to go through certification, we'd all be treated to
the thrill of paying a quarter million for an RV7. No thanks. It's only
through people like Van who have refined the Experimental market to being a
"cookie cutter" operation that many of us can now afford to fly brand new
aircraft that equal or exceed capabilities of GA, and are safer as well (if
built to designers recommendations for systems and engines).
Don't mess with a good thing. If you think that to be a real man is to
build an "experimental" from scratch or plans, have at it. Just leave the
rest of us alone. This "system" is doing fine.

MJC

wrote in message
oups.com...

A simple plans built airplane can be built in 2000 hours,assuming you
work halfway efficiently. The problem is many builders have no skills
and also no great amount of time to devote to the project because they
are working a lot of hours. (You'd think they would be therefore
affluent enough to buy an airplane....)

The sad part is kits wind up taking these people almost as much time
as a scratchbuilt airplane would.

The bottom line is you need to become a skilled aircraft mechanic to
build an airplane...is it a skill set you value enough to learn at this
price? (Don't mistake "skilled" for "licensed". They have absolutely
no relation whatsoever to each other.)

Experimental Amateur Built has, to an extent, become a simple and
baldfaced dodge around type certification. When 90% of builders are
building a few types of 49% done kits on a cookie cutter basis, it's
time to re-evaluate "the system". Experimental should be for
experimenters: people like Van Grunsven should be told to get a type
certificate, tool up, and build a finished airplane.

"MJC"
[snip]
Don't mess with a good thing. If you think that to be a real man is to
build an "experimental" from scratch or plans, have at it. Just leave the
rest of us alone. This "system" is doing fine.


Yeah. Like take-and-bake pizza.


Montblack

"MJC" wrote in message
...
If Van Grunsven were to go through certification, we'd all be treated
to
the thrill of paying a quarter million for an RV7.

And it would be slower, heavier, and most everything about it would be worse
except stability and crashworthiness.

I would say build quality would be better, but I have seen the build quality
of many homebuilts be higher than some lower quality factory planes.
There's a guy fighting with Raytheon here over his new jet that they had to
completely re-rivet the wing on. He wants a BIG price break, and they want
to spruce up the paint.




No thanks. It's only
through people like Van who have refined the Experimental market to being
a
"cookie cutter" operation that many of us can now afford to fly brand new
aircraft that equal or exceed capabilities of GA, and are safer as well
(if
built to designers recommendations for systems and engines)

I would like to agree with you but can't. Van's, and almost all Kit's would
fail some of the FAR's. They are not as crashworthy or stable as the new
certifieds (Cirrus being the possible exception).
..
Don't mess with a good thing. If you think that to be a real man is to
build an "experimental" from scratch or plans, have at it. Just leave the
rest of us alone. This "system" is doing fine.

MJC

Amen Bro!